Machine makes me unable to inhale... Does this happen to anyone?

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
Matt00926
Posts: 266
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:15 am

Re: Machine makes me unable to inhale... Does this happen to anyone?

Post by Matt00926 » Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:10 am

dewfend wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:06 pm


How do you guys think? Any comments are appreciated.

My setting:
Va target: 4.1L/min
Resp Rate: 13/min
Max EPAP: 6.0
Min EPAP: 3.0
Ti Min: 1.1S
Ti Max: 2.0S
Any reason your min EPAP is so low, and max EPAP so locked down? To minimize CO2 rebreathing in a simple vented mask setup, a min EPAP of 4cm h2o is recommended. Will also help prevent more obstructive events. The difference between 3 and 4 EPAP shouldn't make it any harder to exhale. If having a high EPAP is uncomfortable, you could turn off the auto-epap and just gradually raise your EPAP (so no max and min, just a set EPAP) until the obstructives go away. ResMed lets you make micro adjustments.

A set patient rate of 13bpm on iVAPS means the machine doesn't trigger a breath until you don't breathe, or breathe less than 2/3rds of 13bpm, so you are missing a ton of patient triggered breaths. Just because the machine will breathe for you, doesn't mean they are as efficient as patient triggered breaths.

I'd set your Ti min back to the default, and adjust trigger to be a bit more sensitive. Adjust cycle a bit lower if you feel inhalations getting cut off.

I still think you're on the wrong machine.
Machine: ResMed AirCurve 10 ST
Mask: Fisher & Paykel Simplus FFM

KrisCrossed
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:35 pm

Re: Machine makes me unable to inhale... Does this happen to anyone?

Post by KrisCrossed » Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:34 pm

To minimize CO2 rebreathing in a simple vented mask setup, a min EPAP of 4cm h2o is recommended.
Perhaps those with greater experience could weigh in on this: I'm wondering if it would actually be beneficial in dewfend's case to target CO2 rebreathing at a higher concentration, rather than minimizing it. I'm going back to earlier comments that dewfend made that identify a concern that his sensitivity threshold to CO2 may require a greater CO2 level to trigger breaths. His current setting may be accommodating that. Also, if that's the case, is there a mask type that would be best--perhaps full face?
@Pugsy: is it possible that use of machine will make level of carbon dioxide stay low and brain doesn't send signal?

@Palerider: Actually if I use only dental appliance, I feel better the second day when I wake up.
Airsense 11 Autoset
AirTouch F20 Full Face Mask
Northern California

dewfend
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:49 am

Re: Machine makes me unable to inhale... Does this happen to anyone?

Post by dewfend » Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:12 pm

Matt00926 wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:10 am
dewfend wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:06 pm


How do you guys think? Any comments are appreciated.

My setting:
Va target: 4.1L/min
Resp Rate: 13/min
Max EPAP: 6.0
Min EPAP: 3.0
Ti Min: 1.1S
Ti Max: 2.0S
Any reason your min EPAP is so low, and max EPAP so locked down? To minimize CO2 rebreathing in a simple vented mask setup, a min EPAP of 4cm h2o is recommended. Will also help prevent more obstructive events. The difference between 3 and 4 EPAP shouldn't make it any harder to exhale. If having a high EPAP is uncomfortable, you could turn off the auto-epap and just gradually raise your EPAP (so no max and min, just a set EPAP) until the obstructives go away. ResMed lets you make micro adjustments.

A set patient rate of 13bpm on iVAPS means the machine doesn't trigger a breath until you don't breathe, or breathe less than 2/3rds of 13bpm, so you are missing a ton of patient triggered breaths. Just because the machine will breathe for you, doesn't mean they are as efficient as patient triggered breaths.

I'd set your Ti min back to the default, and adjust trigger to be a bit more sensitive. Adjust cycle a bit lower if you feel inhalations getting cut off.

I still think you're on the wrong machine.
Thank you very much for your detailed analysis.

I put my setting in detail here below:
Va target: 4.1L/min
MV: 5.4L/min
Vt: 419 ml
Vt/kg: 7.0ml/kg IBW
Resp Rate: 13/min
Max EPAP: 6.0
Min EPAP: 3.0
Min PS: 0
Max PS: 14.8
Ti Min: 1.1S
Ti Max: 2.5S
Trigger: Low
Cycle: Very high
Full face mask

1) I set EPAP 3.0 in order to make my exhalation easier, I will follow your suggestion to EPAP 4.0 fixed and go higher gradually to eliminate OSA.
2) Sorry I don't understand well about
A set patient rate of 13bpm on iVAPS means the machine doesn't trigger a breath until you don't breathe, or breathe less than 2/3rds of 13bpm, so you are missing a ton of patient triggered breaths. Just because the machine will breathe for you, doesn't mean they are as efficient as patient triggered breaths.
, what should I do?
3) Inhalation trigger (Trigger), I set low because on medium setting I felt the machine was forcing me to inhale, I wanted to let my own breathing movement get air in my lung
Exhalation trigger (Cycle), I wanted to get pressure down immediately so I can exhale in easier way. I felt if no exhalation movement I will stop inhalation.
Ti min default is 0.9S? I set 1.1 because I feel my inhalation time longer than usual.
4) I will try to get an ASV machine

dewfend
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:49 am

Re: Machine makes me unable to inhale... Does this happen to anyone?

Post by dewfend » Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:34 pm

data of 25th Sep:
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AHI 0.8, good number, my heart doesn't feel tired in the morning, but I am not refreshed as the day before.
I continue sleeping trying not be in my back. It improved my sleep quality since the heart is feeling not tired. But just not tired, I had better feeling that I feel my heart strong, now it feels a little bit weak.
Now I guess the hypopnea is the reason to cause my heart's irregular beating
Can someone explain why the resp rate is steady? My own guess is I had no breathing movement at all and I was fully supported by the machine so the rate is in line with machine's setting and steady.

My setting:
Va target: 4.1L/min
MV: 5.4L/min
Vt: 419
Vt/kg: 7.0ml/kg IBW
Resp Rate: 13/min
Max EPAP: 6.0
Min EPAP: 3.0
Min PS: 0
Max PS: 14.8
Ti Min: 1.1S
Ti Max: 2.5S
Trigger: Low
Cycle: Very high
Full face mask

dewfend
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:49 am

Re: Machine makes me unable to inhale... Does this happen to anyone?

Post by dewfend » Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:26 am

Matt00926 wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:10 am
A set patient rate of 13bpm on iVAPS means the machine doesn't trigger a breath until you don't breathe, or breathe less than 2/3rds of 13bpm, so you are missing a ton of patient triggered breaths. Just because the machine will breathe for you, doesn't mean they are as efficient as patient triggered breaths.
So should I increase the RR?

Matt00926
Posts: 266
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:15 am

Re: Machine makes me unable to inhale... Does this happen to anyone?

Post by Matt00926 » Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:38 pm

That lengthy flatline is machine triggered breaths. It means you are not syncing well with the machine and/or it's not set up correctly for you.

A longer Ti min and very high cycle sensitivity are kind of opposing forces. The cycle setting says you want to shift to Exhalation fast, but Ti min forces the breath to last at least as long as set.

I would trial more basic mid range settings:

rise time 300ms
cyce: med
trigger: med
ti min 0.5s
ti max 2.5-3s

see what happens after a night
Machine: ResMed AirCurve 10 ST
Mask: Fisher & Paykel Simplus FFM

dewfend
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:49 am

Re: Machine makes me unable to inhale... Does this happen to anyone?

Post by dewfend » Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:21 am

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Well the tiredness is stronger than yesterday, the heart I feel OK.
The flatline disappeared.

My setting:
Va target: 4.1L/min
MV: 5.5L/min
Vt: 396 ml
Vt/kg: 6.6ml/kg IBW
Resp Rate: 14/min
EPAP: 4.0
Min PS: 0
Max PS: 16
Ti Min: 1.1S
Ti Max: 2.5S
Trigger: Low
Cycle: Very high
Full face mask

dewfend
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:49 am

Re: Machine makes me unable to inhale... Does this happen to anyone?

Post by dewfend » Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:24 am

Matt00926 wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:38 pm
That lengthy flatline is machine triggered breaths. It means you are not syncing well with the machine and/or it's not set up correctly for you.
Got it, thank you!
Matt00926 wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:38 pm

rise time 300ms
cyce: med
trigger: med
ti min 0.5s
ti max 2.5-3s
I will try this setting tonight

dewfend
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:49 am

Re: Machine makes me unable to inhale... Does this happen to anyone?

Post by dewfend » Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:57 pm

data of 28th Sep
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My setting:
Mode: iVAPS
Va target: 4.1L/min
MV: 5.4L/min
Vt: 419
Vt/kg: 7.0ml/kg IBW
Resp Rate: 13/min
EPAP:
Min PS: 0
Max PS: 16
Ti Min: 0.5
Ti Max: 2.5
Trigger: Med
Cycle: Med

I feel very good today, it is the best sleep I have these days.
My guess updated:
1) sleep not in my back made improvement on the sleep quality
2) the hypopnea made my heart beat irregularly, the H event decreased and my heart feels much better, not sensitive to the noise anymore.

Any suggestions or comments are welcome.

Wish you all have good sleep, which is so important for life, a day start with refreshed mind is so happy:)

User avatar
Julie
Posts: 19910
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 12:58 pm

Re: Machine makes me unable to inhale... Does this happen to anyone?

Post by Julie » Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:58 pm

Just get rid of the calendar - it's blocking info underneath.

dewfend
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:49 am

Re: Machine makes me unable to inhale... Does this happen to anyone?

Post by dewfend » Fri Oct 01, 2021 8:54 am

Data of 30th Sep:
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The data looks good, the doctor suggested decreasing the IPAP, so I decreased PS from 16 to 15.
I will
1) continue decreasing the max PS to 14
2) decrease the Va target to 3.9L/min

Any comment is welcome
@Julie, thank you! I followed your suggestion.


My setting:
Mode: iVAPS
Va target: 4.1L/min
MV: 5.4L/min
Vt: 419
Vt/kg: 7.0ml/kg IBW
Resp Rate: 13/min
EPAP:
Min PS: 0
Max PS: 15
Ti Min: 0.5
Ti Max: 2.5
Trigger: Med
Cycle: Med

GrumpyHere
Posts: 508
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:40 am

Re: Machine makes me unable to inhale... Does this happen to anyone?

Post by GrumpyHere » Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:14 am

Please also turn off Events breakdown pie chart.
The breakdown data is in the table right above the pie chart.

Remove its check mark under the View menu.
ResMed Lumis Tx - VAuto mode

dewfend
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:49 am

Re: Machine makes me unable to inhale... Does this happen to anyone?

Post by dewfend » Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:10 pm

Data of 2nd Oct:
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My setting:
Mode: iVAPS
Va target: 4.0L/min
MV: 5.2L/min
Vt: 404
Vt/kg: 6.7ml/kg IBW
Resp Rate: 13/min
EPAP:
Min PS: 0
Max PS: 15
Ti Min: 0.5
Ti Max: 2.5
Trigger: Med
Cycle: Med

The ramp time is 20 mins, in these 20 mins 3 times of heart irregularly beating happened. I guess in the ramp time the hypopnea happened and it caused the arrhythmia.
Tonight I will set ramp 0 to see the difference.

As always any insights are appreciated.

dewfend
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:49 am

Re: Machine makes me unable to inhale... Does this happen to anyone?

Post by dewfend » Sun Oct 03, 2021 5:56 am

Will hypopnea cause arrhythmia? seems it is happening to my body.

User avatar
ChicagoGranny
Posts: 14471
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:43 pm
Location: USA

Re: Machine makes me unable to inhale... Does this happen to anyone?

Post by ChicagoGranny » Sun Oct 03, 2021 3:30 pm

dewfend wrote:
Sun Oct 03, 2021 5:56 am
Will hypopnea cause arrhythmia? seems it is happening to my body.
Significant amounts of hypopneas can cause stress, sleep deprivation, and/or fatigue to the point of exhaustion.

Stress, sleep deprivation, and/or fatigue to the point of exhaustion can cause arrhythmia.