CPAPtalk.com

Thanks so much. I will email to ask about the Dreamstation 2. So glad I asked and that you are still here. (endless knowledge). It was good timing that I found this out before getting the new machine.

Edited - Removed Prior Quotes:


ResMed machines DO have a foam piece within the air chamber that generates the airflow for your CPAP - so yes, there is also FOAM that is within the airflow of ResMed CPAP machines (at least the AirSense 10's).

Here's a pic of the foam, within the airflow generating portion of a ResMed AirSense 10 model. I grabbed this pic from a YouTube video from a guy taking apart his ResMed (for her) machine.

Here's a https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpI0AVo ... ntsReviews link to the YouTube video of the ResMed Machine tear-down (BTW, it's a great video to show you how to take apart your ResMed CPAP - it's actually a very simple product with only a few parts). The part where the foam is exposed is at 8:40 into the video.

JLROhio wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:45 pm

ResMed machines DO have a foam piece within the air chamber that generates the airflow for your CPAP - so yes, there is FOAM that is within the airflow of ResMed CPAP machines (at least the AirSense 10's).

Of course ResMed machines have foam inside them.....I never said they didn't.
Just because they use foam doesn't mean it is the same foam that Respironics uses though.
Doesn't mean that the ResMed foam will degrade on general principle either...ResMed has already address foam degradation and blamed it on ozone "cleaners". That's old news. We have no idea what the components are for any of these machine makers might be. They don't share those details. There's an awful lot of very different foam materials out there that could be used and they sure aren't all the same.

Please read closely what I said.

Pugsy wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:01 pm

JLROhio wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:45 pm

ResMed machines DO have a foam piece within the air chamber that generates the airflow for your CPAP - so yes, there is FOAM that is within the airflow of ResMed CPAP machines (at least the AirSense 10's).

Of course ResMed machines have foam inside them.....I never said they didn't.
Just because they use foam doesn't mean it is the same foam that Respironics uses though.
Doesn't mean that the ResMed foam will degrade on general principle either...ResMed has already address foam degradation and blamed it on ozone "cleaners". That's old news. We have no idea what the components are for any of these machine makers might be. They don't share those details. There's an awful lot of very different foam materials out there that could be used and they sure aren't all the same.

Please read closely what I said.

You are correct...I did not mean to imply you (or the other posters) said it did not. I will edit my posting.
I wanted to focus on the point that ResMed AirSense 10's do have foam within their air pump housing and used the prior questions to show that point.
Better reading on my part to the original questions...would have helped me do that!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Surprisingly, the Phillips Dreamstation sound-abatement foam in question appears to be more enclosed than the ResMed foam, which is directly within the air pump housing.

Here's another YouTube Link ---> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAXkLJ_ ... PAPReviews that specifically shows the sound-abatement foam within the air pump housing of the Phillips Dreamstation - go to 3:05 to see the disassembly of the machine and the foam in question.

Below is a screenshot of the Phillips Dreamstation sound-abatement foam that surrounds the air pump housing.

One thing I cannot tell is - is the foam within the Phillips Dreamstation similar to what is in the ResMed AirSense 10 models??
I've been trying to find a better picture of the Phillips Dreamstation foam to at least visually compare.

For those worried about foam bits (not the chemical bits) getting into the lungs,
wouldn't a inline AB filter temporarily address the problem?

https://www.cpap.com/productpage/generi ... nes-1-pack

ChicagoGranny wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:08 pm

babydinosnoreless wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:58 pm

cr1977m1 wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:48 pm

Does anyone have any idea if Resmed has a similar issue with respect to foam?

I am wondering about this too ?

ResMed stock rose 4% today on news of the problems at Philips. If the analysts know their stuff, ResMed does not use the same material in their machines.

Crossing fingers. .

Pugsy wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:13 pm

babydinosnoreless wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:58 pm

cr1977m1 wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:48 pm

Does anyone have any idea if Resmed has a similar issue with respect to foam?

I am wondering about this too ?

None that we have heard of except the known problem with the foam in ResMed machines reaction to ozone "cleaning".
I suspect that a different kind of foam is used in ResMed machines.
After all...not all Respironics machines are affected so they probably have a different kind of foam in them as well.

Well I've never used a ozone cleaner I should be good. Thanks

I know a definitive answer would be impossible, but would it be too much of a risk to continue using the Dreamstation? My supplier says that it would be difficult for him to exchange my machine for a Resmed Autoset. So I was thinking that perhaps I should continue using my Dreamstation until I can get the foam replaced somehow, once Philips starts offering replacements. There is an official Philips Respironics dealer in my country so there might be a chance they'll replace the foam.

The other option would be to continue using the Dreamstation until I am able to order an Autoset from the US, but I'm not sure whether the Autoset would still be in stock by then.

I had no idea this was going on! you could knock me over with a feather.

I'm not really clear if my machine is affected? Is it all machines manufactured before 2021? Or just certain specific ones? The lists they have posted include the Remstar but I don't see my exact model, it is the PR System One REMstar Auto CPAP Machine with A-Flex (this one: https://www.cpap.com/productpage/respir ... -cpap-flex )

Their list includes SystemOne ASV4, SystemOne (Q series), and REMStar SE Auto CPAP.

I noticed it says that ozone cleaners may hasten the breakdown of the foam? Am I at lower risk then, since I never clean my machine? (lol) I mean, I dust it once in a while... Also I live in the north, so...

What are you all doing? I can't really sleep at all without mine.

According to this article https://hme-business.com/articles/2021/ ... ilips.aspx

Philips reported that it received reports of possible patient impact due to foam degradation. The potential risks of being exposed to the particulate include headache, irritation, inflammation, respiratory issues, and possible toxic and carcinogenic effects.

The potential risks of chemical exposure due to off-gassing from the foam include headache, irritation, hypersensitivity, nausea or vomiting, and possible toxic and carcinogenic effects. Philips reported it has not received reports regarding patient impact related to chemical emissions.

So, sounds like they have had reports of degraded foam getting into the air supply but not reports of chemical off-gassing. To be fair, if anyone got cancer from this there would be zero way of knowing.

So I've dug out some information about the foam that they use in the machine and its health risks. Philips says that it is a polyurethane foam. However, researching online, I found that polyurethane can take many forms (https://www.nontoxu.com/plastics-silico ... lyurethane). One of these is Toluene Diisocyante, which is used to make foams. I guess this would be the chemical used in Philips' foam.

Wikipedia has the following to say about the health risks of this chemical:

"The LD50 for TDI is 5800 mg/kg for oral contact and LC50 of 610 mg/m3 for the vapour. Despite the indicated low toxicity, TDI is classified as “very toxic” by the European Community.[4]

In the United States, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration has set a permissible exposure limit with a ceiling at 0.02 ppm (0.14 mg/m3), while the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health has not established a recommended exposure limit, due to the classification of toluene diisocyanate as a possible occupational carcinogen.[6] This chemical was one of many that caused two massive explosions in a chemical warehouse stationed in Tianjin, China on August 13, 2015.[7]"

"High-level exposure can result in reactive airways dysfunction syndrome [i.e., asthma and other respiratory problems]."

More information about it can be found here: http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims/ch ... im534.html

"Toluene di-isocyanates are reactive ingredients that are used in combination with polyether and polyester polyols to produce polyurethane foams. They are mainly used in the production of:

- flexible polyurethane foams,
- polyurethane coatings,
- elastomeric coating systems, adhesives, and
sealants.
"
It looks like the main concern of inhaling this chemical is the risk of developing significant respiratory issues. A US govt document states the following: "Chronic inhalation exposure to 2,4-toluene diisocyanate in workers has caused significant decreases in lung function, an asthma-like reaction characterized by wheezing, dyspnea, and bronchial constriction."

No wonder that Philips is recommending discontinuing using the machines. But why didn't they know the health risks of this chemical before they decided to use it in their machines? The reported risks are not new - they have been known since the 80s.

ILoveFlowers wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:27 am

I had no idea this was going on! you could knock me over with a feather.

I'm not really clear if my machine is affected? Is it all machines manufactured before 2021? Or just certain specific ones? The lists they have posted include the Remstar but I don't see my exact model, it is the PR System One REMstar Auto CPAP Machine with A-Flex (this one: https://www.cpap.com/productpage/respir ... -cpap-flex )

Their list includes SystemOne ASV4, SystemOne (Q series), and REMStar SE Auto CPAP.

I noticed it says that ozone cleaners may hasten the breakdown of the foam? Am I at lower risk then, since I never clean my machine? (lol) I mean, I dust it once in a while... Also I live in the north, so...

What are you all doing? I can't really sleep at all without mine.

I am still trying to figure out what "Q" series means since this is the first time we've seen this BUT...what we think is that's an overall general model class similar to back when we had the M Series model class only it was not promoted in the same manner.

At this point we think it is going to include all the System One machines as in the 50 and 60 series machines which yours would be included. At least the commonly used cpap/apap models anyway. Those basic cpap machine and the Pro models and the Auto/apap models. The same machines I used many years ago until I switched to ResMed.

I have not been able to find documentation as to exactly what Q series means....I will continue to look and will share if I find out but my contact feels it likely doesn't bode well for the run of the mill cpap/apap System One users.

This is brand new situation and they (Phillips) have yet to make it easy for people to check their serial numbers or explain things very well ....like what exactly what the "Q" series means but eventually it will get sorted out.

If it were me...and I have been asked what would I do if the only machine I had was the System One like I used to use...I would continue using it (contrary to what Phillips has said) because I would evaluate the risk situation...known risk of sleeping without cpap vs an unknown risk. Helluva choice I know but that's what I would do. Each person has to decide what they want to do and can do.
I sure as hell wouldn't be using any sort of cleaner on my machine though since we know for sure it can accelerate foam degradation.
And I would be figuring out some way of getting my hands on another machine....
My O2 levels tanked without cpap...to down around 70% and to do without until Phillips fixed my machine (if that is all I had) would be just totally unacceptable. It's not like next week they will have this whole situation fixed...try next year. Over 400 million units...it's going to be a long slow process.

Legally they have to tell people to stop using the machines...it's a CYA thing.
It's a legal thing and not a practical thing. It sucks but it is what it is.
If the only machine I had available was affected (or maybe affected)....I would still use it because the risk of not using it would be worse choice for me at this time but I would proceed with either getting a different machine and/or figuring out for sure if my model was affected which means going through whatever process Phillips eventually comes up with in terms of verifying by serial numbers.
I would assume the worst and try to prepare for it if at all possible.

This is going to be a nightmare for a whole bunch of people....including Phillips.

gadgetmaniah wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:19 am

No wonder that Philips is recommending discontinuing using the machines. But why didn't they know the health risks of this chemical before they decided to use it in their machines? The reported risks are not new - they have been known since the 80s.

The blind eye is only blind when the sin of greed is on the line.

gadgetmaniah wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:19 am

So I've dug out some information about the foam that they use in the machine and its health risks.

You have no qualifications to evaluate any of the information you snipped off the internet.

Is there a single soul here who understands this basic principle of toxicology?

Sola dosis facit venenum.