CPAPtalk.com

wrote:
Hairy, my point is that perhaps Philips is laying the groundwork to limit their exposure by saying they have no obligation to repair or replace machines past their stated service life anyway.

You may well be right. I saw a review online of the new resmed 11 machine. Apparently it has a nag screen that pops up at 5 years to tell you it is past its service life and urges you to buy a new one.

The next step will be to have the unit programmed to stop working, or go into some crippled mode where only the basic functionality works, to force the user to replace the machine.

Again, though, other than to sell more machines, I don't know why they are assigning what seems to me an arbitrary 5 year life.

HairyReasoner wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:13 am

I don't know why they are assigning what seems to me an arbitrary 5 year life.

What would you propose?

HairyReasoner wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:13 am

old dude wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:51 am

Reading between the lines a bit in the Philips announcement they remind the user that the general service life of PAP devices is considered to be 5 years. Does anyone else think that it might be a waste of time to register and seek mitigation with devices older than this?

For various reasons I tend to hang on to older machines as long as they still work. I’m sure I’m not alone in this.

I have yet to see a good argument as to why machines should be replaced every 5 years, even if it is still working well. Resmed's argument seems to simply be so you can take advantage of the latest features. But if you don't need those latest features, why do you need to replace the unit?

I suspect it has more to do with the fact the manufacturers need you to replace your machine every 5 years. The main health helped is their financial health.

You are wise to hang on to your old units for such a time as this. I'm glad I still kept my old M series, even though that's two units ago for me now. Both my Dreamstation and my System One are in the recall. Just hope the M series hangs in there a while.

Many years ago when I worked in an electronic manufacturing company we had an engineering department whose function was to come up with some numbers related to reliability and lifespan of our products. These were known as MTBF amd MTTF and explained in the link below. I would suspect somewhere in course of product design and manufacture Philips has done a reliability study (probably easier with computers now as we had to rely on HP programmable calculators back in the day) and have determined 5 years to be an optimum time for replacement. Some devices may last longer than 5 years, some less. The MTBF for a Philips CPAP might be published somewhere, but I couldn't find it readily.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_time ... n_failures
https://resources.pcb.cadence.com/blog/ ... lectronics

I suspect it has more to do with the fact the manufacturers need you to replace your machine every 5 years. The main health helped is their financial health.

I also wonder how much of an impact on the 5 year thing is the common insurance allowed replacement time frame.
Which came first...insurance time frame or manufacturer time frame.
Years ago replacing after 5 years by insurance was commonly done...no questions asked.
Not so much today though. Even Medicare now wants you to wait until the machine either no longer works or it costs more to fix it than it is worth. Years ago even Medicare just routinely would pay for a new machine after 5 years...no questions asked.
Now they ask questions...and most insurance companies use Medicare guidelines as their base policy.

Just purchased a DreamStation 2 from my DME (AdaptHealth) for $832. Extremely frustrating that I'm spending this much money, but I can't sleep without my CPAP and I don't have confidence that Philips has any strategy here.

ChicagoGranny wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:23 am

HairyReasoner wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:13 am

I don't know why they are assigning what seems to me an arbitrary 5 year life.

What would you propose?

When the machine no longer functions as needed. Just like how we decide when to replace other things.

It occurred to me over the weekend that when I started with my PRS1 560 about 6 years ago, it definitely seems like it was quieter back then. It may just be my perception but seems like it got louder over the years. And 6 months or so ago when I broke out the new-in-box PRS1 560 that was manufactured about 5 years ago that I'm using now it seemed odd that it was no quieter than the 5 years old *used* one. Now I'm wondering if the foam breakdown could be occurring over time regardless of Ozone exposure, and if it could be making these things louder? I may have to forego the recall replacement on one of these and do my own warranty voiding autopsy.

Grumpy48 wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:48 am

Many years ago when I worked in an electronic manufacturing company we had an engineering department whose function was to come up with some numbers related to reliability and lifespan of our products. These were known as MTBF amd MTTF and explained in the link below. I would suspect somewhere in course of product design and manufacture Philips has done a reliability study (probably easier with computers now as we had to rely on HP programmable calculators back in the day) and have determined 5 years to be an optimum time for replacement. Some devices may last longer than 5 years, some less. The MTBF for a Philips CPAP might be published somewhere, but I couldn't find it readily.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_time ... n_failures
https://resources.pcb.cadence.com/blog/ ... lectronics

Perhaps at one point replacement time was derived on a MTBF or MTTF, but I doubt it now.

Like all things CPAP, replacement time frames are based on when Insurance will replace them.

Then DME's and manufacturers then push to replace machines and consumables on the insurance schedules.

Had replacement schedules for machines been based on an actual mean time, then not all machines by all manufacturers be 5 years. The same is true for supplies, all full face masks regardless of manufacturer has the identical replacement schedule, the same is true for hoses, headstraps, pillows.

As much as I hate unnecessary replacement of supplies, the same is not true fr devices. One can cheaply keep spare supplies for unanticipated failure, the same is not true for machines.

HairyReasoner wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:41 am

ChicagoGranny wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:23 am

HairyReasoner wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:13 am

I don't know why they are assigning what seems to me an arbitrary 5 year life.

What would you propose?

When the machine no longer functions as needed. Just like how we decide when to replace other things.

Sure, let's start treating our essential medical equipment like toasters.

Dog Slobber wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:50 am

Sure, let's start treating our essential medical equipment like toasters.

Dan_McD wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:06 pm

This is the name of the video "Impact of the Philips PAP Recall on Patient Care and Sleep Center Operations" and the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H80vyhFb5vc

This is a really insightful video. Interesting to see how Drs are reacting to this.

Do we have any idea how long after registering it will be before they can repair or replace these units?

After trying and failing last week, I was able to get through to the Philips support line @ (877) 907-7508 today:

1. Last week the support line queue would kick-off with a message about expected hold time of ~15 minutes, counting down every 5 minutes or so. At the end of the 15 minutes, the system would kick me back out to the top menu and start the process all over again. For my amusement I kept the phone line open for 70 minutes until PR eventually disconnected the call.
2. Today the call queue was setup differently. The phone system was now telling me there were ~130 people ahead of me in the queue. The queue moved fairly quickly hold time + Q&A lasted 30 minutes.
3. The rep I spoke to today seemed generally uninformed and was relying on a script. I wouldn't be surprised if Philips outsourced this to a 3rd party call center; I say this because the representative kept referring to Philips as "they" and "them".

The following points by the representative were most interesting but also likely to be of questionable merit:

1. No timeline on next steps. Philips is awaiting "regulatory approval" for their plans. I pressed her on if this could be days / weeks / months, but she would not elaborate further.
2. Philips would most likely be sending out new replacement units to patients who registered impacted units on their website; this was off the cuff and did not seem to be read of a script. When I asked for references on the Philips website, the representative could not provide one nor account for Philips' statements of their intent to "Repair" these units per their website.
3. Philips will be prioritizing situations where the clinical need is "most acute". How will they determine how acute each patient's situation is? I wanted to ask, but knew the representative likely had no idea.
4. Philips would be reimbursing $$$ to patients who had to purchase replacement units; this was was very clearly being read off of a reference document and/or screen to me. This seemed like a pretty big deal. When I asked for official references on the Philips website I was put back into the call queue. Take this for what it's worth.

I'm an owner of a Dreamstation (4.5 years) and Dreamstation Go (3-years). I'm ready to replace the DS1 now out of pocket; I could buy an Autoset 10 now, but it seems like the 11's will be available in August. Ugh.

Buddy0329 wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:27 pm

After trying and failing last week, I was able to get through to the Philips support line @ (877) 907-7508 today:

thank you very much for this report. it'll be interesting to see how much of what was read to you remains in force and what exactly changes.

fingers crossed that they stick with what you have reported.

zonker wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:37 pm

Buddy0329 wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:27 pm

After trying and failing last week, I was able to get through to the Philips support line @ (877) 907-7508 today:

thank you very much for this report. it'll be interesting to see how much of what was read to you remains in force and what exactly changes.

fingers crossed that they stick with what you have reported.

Based on what Philips has written on its own website I would not expect anything more than a "repair". Any talk now of shipping out "new" units to customers or financially compensating customers for their out of pocket costs feels like a lie to me.

Pugsy wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:59 am

I suspect it has more to do with the fact the manufacturers need you to replace your machine every 5 years. The main health helped is their financial health.

I also wonder how much of an impact on the 5 year thing is the common insurance allowed replacement time frame.
Which came first...insurance time frame or manufacturer time frame.
Years ago replacing after 5 years by insurance was commonly done...no questions asked.
Not so much today though. Even Medicare now wants you to wait until the machine either no longer works or it costs more to fix it than it is worth. Years ago even Medicare just routinely would pay for a new machine after 5 years...no questions asked.
Now they ask questions...and most insurance companies use Medicare guidelines as their base policy.

You can also add the Veterans Administration (VA) to that list too...in addition to Medicare.

I informed the VA that my machine was approaching its 5 years and inquired about how the replacement process goes...
They (VA) told me that they don't replace the machines anymore...instead, you wait for it to break...and contact them...at that point, they will arrange to send you out one.
I asked, so...what do I use in the meantime while I'm waiting on a replacement - she said, you'll just have to wait for the new machine...

I think...I'll be calling them in a year or so and tell them that my machine is making some sort of noise (similar to what I have read on here)...and ask for a replacement - I hate the thought of having to do that...but I also don't want to die waiting for a replacement...and if you've ever had to deal with the VA...it's sometimes a Looooong wait for some things.