Phillips / Philips Respironics recent recall notice discussion thread

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
litetrek
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Re: Phillips / Philips Respironics recent recall notice discussion thread

Post by litetrek » Sat Jan 07, 2023 12:06 pm

Thanks. I don't have the machine yet (amazingly) but I believe DS1 AND DS2 are both 15 volt machines. The standard these days seems to be 15V or 24V. Anyhow I'll find out IF I ever get it. I was in several of the high risk groups including first responder and its been over a year. I've been contacted several times by them to get information they already had. They seem to be finding any excuse to draw out the process.

Anyhow, you can run ANY cpap off of a 12V battery with the correct cord/converter. The proprietary cord generally has a converter in it to convert the voltage from 12V to whatever is needed. That conversion process wastes amp hours available from the battery - usually 15 to 20%. My wife also uses a CPAP and we boondock (no electricity) in our RV for up to a week. Wasting amp hours to conversion cuts a day off the available capacity.

The RV has a 12V AGM battery which is needed to run the heater and the lights and the refrigerator brain. One night on both of our CPAPs will kill that battery. So I bought 2 expensive ($400 each) lithium power stations to independantly run our cpaps. Those batteries will last about 4 nights running only the cpaps. I am an engineer and I made a study of this. I made tables of data logged over a several week period. I know exactly how many nights I can get out of the equipment we bought. My wife and I have a very small camper and we didn't want to bother with dragging around at least 2 big and very heavy lead acid batteries. There is no floor space available for lead acids. The lithium power stations can be easily picked up and stored under the sink. So, I agree that lead acid is the cheap way to get it done but it involves a level of messing around that we didn't want to deal with. Solar is a nice option but you need to be in a place where there is enough direct sunlight for it to work. We camp in the appalachians usually not at a campground typically under a dense canopy of trees with no direct sunlight. Solar cells would thelp stretch the amp hr capacity but probably not enough to get an extra day out of the batteries.

The actual proprietary cords cost me about 75 each. You can find cheaper ones but I bought OEM because I didn't want to trust our expensive machines to a knock off. Much of the cheaper chinese stuff on Amazon is just garbage. Also, you can sometimes run a 15 V machine straight from a 12V battery (depending on the turbine motor) with no conversion but that underpowers the machine and won't give you the necessary pressure. It also damages the turbine motor. People do it but its not a good idea.

So, I may have overestimated my investment a bit but its close to $1000 and the equipment was specifically bought to suit our needs. It is not completely useless for the new machine but it will no longer do what I intended it to do and I spent a lot of money on it.

Lane101
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Re: Phillips / Philips Respironics recent recall notice discussion thread

Post by Lane101 » Sat Jan 07, 2023 5:00 pm

litetrek wrote:
Sat Jan 07, 2023 12:06 pm
Thanks. I don't have the machine yet (amazingly) but I believe DS1 AND DS2 are both 15 volt machines. The standard these days seems to be 15V or 24V. Anyhow I'll find out IF I ever get it. I was in several of the high risk groups including first responder and its been over a year. I've been contacted several times by them to get information they already had. They seem to be finding any excuse to draw out the process.

Anyhow, you can run ANY cpap off of a 12V battery with the correct cord/converter. The proprietary cord generally has a converter in it to convert the voltage from 12V to whatever is needed. That conversion process wastes amp hours available from the battery - usually 15 to 20%. My wife also uses a CPAP and we boondock (no electricity) in our RV for up to a week. Wasting amp hours to conversion cuts a day off the available capacity.

The RV has a 12V AGM battery which is needed to run the heater and the lights and the refrigerator brain. One night on both of our CPAPs will kill that battery. So I bought 2 expensive ($400 each) lithium power stations to independantly run our cpaps. Those batteries will last about 4 nights running only the cpaps. I am an engineer and I made a study of this. I made tables of data logged over a several week period. I know exactly how many nights I can get out of the equipment we bought. My wife and I have a very small camper and we didn't want to bother with dragging around at least 2 big and very heavy lead acid batteries. There is no floor space available for lead acids. The lithium power stations can be easily picked up and stored under the sink. So, I agree that lead acid is the cheap way to get it done but it involves a level of messing around that we didn't want to deal with. Solar is a nice option but you need to be in a place where there is enough direct sunlight for it to work. We camp in the appalachians usually not at a campground typically under a dense canopy of trees with no direct sunlight. Solar cells would thelp stretch the amp hr capacity but probably not enough to get an extra day out of the batteries.

The actual proprietary cords cost me about 75 each. You can find cheaper ones but I bought OEM because I didn't want to trust our expensive machines to a knock off. Much of the cheaper chinese stuff on Amazon is just garbage. Also, you can sometimes run a 15 V machine straight from a 12V battery (depending on the turbine motor) with no conversion but that underpowers the machine and won't give you the necessary pressure. It also damages the turbine motor. People do it but its not a good idea.

So, I may have overestimated my investment a bit but its close to $1000 and the equipment was specifically bought to suit our needs. It is not completely useless for the new machine but it will no longer do what I intended it to do and I spent a lot of money on it.
Makes sense that for 2 fully assembled aftermarket powerstations with lithium batteries the price would be a lot higher than my pair of DIY agm based power packs. Sounds like they have a higher capacity since you are running your machines for 4 days on them. Also lithium can support use of almost the entire battery's capacity vs. agm lead acid where the max recommended draw down is 80% of the stated battery capacity. You are right about the solar panels, the 30 watts works for us as any extended camping we do is in the summer with long days in areas with plenty of direct sunshine. A lot more capacity would be needed for less sunny locations and times when the days are shorter. Fortunately our Fall and Spring camping trips are shorter for, at most, three nights so we skip the solar on those.

The DS1s and DS2s are both 12 volt machines. I own two DS1s and the manual and bottom panel on the machine clearly state 12 volts. They run directly off of my 12 volt batteries without any conversion. Per the DS2 manual it uses the same cable to run directly off of a 12 volt system. The proprietary Philips cable does not provide any voltage conversion. To maximize accessory revenue Philips added a third wire that runs thru a resistor that the machine must sense on a 12 volt DC power source to operate. My older System One CPAP is also rated at 12 volts and runs with a standard barrel connector cable off of my 12 volt system.

For others reading this note that the AGM battery packs are simple and compact. They don't require any of the voltage management systems needed for safe operation of lithium, just standard wiring and connectors with a basic auto fuse. The half U1 size is compact measuring only roughly 7 inches x 3 inches x 6.5 inches and with a 20ah capacity can provide one amp of power for 16 hours that easily covers two nights of CPAP use with some extra for charging electronic devices. There is a long thread started by Capnloki where many, including myself, have posted the details on how to build an agm based DIY system.

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Re: Phillips / Philips Respironics recent recall notice discussion thread

Post by -tim » Sun Jan 08, 2023 11:35 am

jtravel wrote:
Sat Dec 24, 2022 3:07 pm
I have been using a Resmed Autoset 10 as i wait for the replacement of my system one 560 that I had purchased from Cpap.com several years ago.
Unfortunately My Autoset 10 is now over 5 years old and shutting itself off and restarting during the night. I have Auto off is disabled so something is wrong with it. After reading everything from philips It seems the risk of exposure or harm from the foam is low so I have decided to start using my low hour 560 again. I faxed my original prescription to them back in Oct but then they changed it to they need to contact my doctor. Called and provided all that information to Philips last month but no movement or change on the portal so far.
Can you start a new thread about this?

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litetrek
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Re: Phillips / Philips Respironics recent recall notice discussion thread

Post by litetrek » Sun Jan 08, 2023 2:38 pm

Lane101 wrote:
Sat Jan 07, 2023 5:00 pm
The DS1s and DS2s are both 12 volt machines. I own two DS1s and the manual and bottom panel on the machine clearly state 12 volts. They run directly off of my 12 volt batteries without any conversion. Per the DS2 manual it uses the same cable to run directly off of a 12 volt system. The proprietary Philips cable does not provide any voltage conversion. To maximize accessory revenue Philips added a third wire that runs thru a resistor that the machine must sense on a 12 volt DC power source to operate. My older System One CPAP is also rated at 12 volts and runs with a standard barrel connector cable off of my 12 volt system.
Thanks for the info. I'm glad to know either machine is a 12V. If I ever recieve a machine I hope it is a DS1. A DS2 is better than getting nothing but the DS1 is a much better design in my opinion.

Since I've been forced to use my recalled system 1 for over a year while I've been waiting, I went ahead and removed the foam and thoroughly cleaned out all of the parts with warm water and Dawn dishwashing soap. I never used a UV cleaner (supposedly the big risk) yet the foam from my rather old machine crumbled and fell apart in my hands when I removed it. I don't think the manufacturer is being honest with the FDA.

The fact that its been a year and I'm still waiting amazes me. I got a phone call last week confirming my name address, etc. Maybe it will just show up unexpectedly. I actually had two machines subject to the recall but I didn't want to be greedy and make two claims.

Lane101
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Re: Phillips / Philips Respironics recent recall notice discussion thread

Post by Lane101 » Tue Jan 10, 2023 5:04 pm

litetrek wrote:
Sun Jan 08, 2023 2:38 pm
Lane101 wrote:
Sat Jan 07, 2023 5:00 pm
The DS1s and DS2s are both 12 volt machines. I own two DS1s and the manual and bottom panel on the machine clearly state 12 volts. They run directly off of my 12 volt batteries without any conversion. Per the DS2 manual it uses the same cable to run directly off of a 12 volt system. The proprietary Philips cable does not provide any voltage conversion. To maximize accessory revenue Philips added a third wire that runs thru a resistor that the machine must sense on a 12 volt DC power source to operate. My older System One CPAP is also rated at 12 volts and runs with a standard barrel connector cable off of my 12 volt system.
Thanks for the info. I'm glad to know either machine is a 12V. If I ever recieve a machine I hope it is a DS1. A DS2 is better than getting nothing but the DS1 is a much better design in my opinion.

Since I've been forced to use my recalled system 1 for over a year while I've been waiting, I went ahead and removed the foam and thoroughly cleaned out all of the parts with warm water and Dawn dishwashing soap. I never used a UV cleaner (supposedly the big risk) yet the foam from my rather old machine crumbled and fell apart in my hands when I removed it. I don't think the manufacturer is being honest with the FDA.

The fact that its been a year and I'm still waiting amazes me. I got a phone call last week confirming my name address, etc. Maybe it will just show up unexpectedly. I actually had two machines subject to the recall but I didn't want to be greedy and make two claims.
There is a good chance that many more of the machines on the market may have foam issues and that Philips, for all our complaining, is the only manufacturer that owned up to the issue. My Goodknight 420 CPAP from 2005-6 had foam that had turned to mush when I dissembled it prior to disposal a few years ago. Identical degradation to what has been reported regarding Philips machines. Resmed claims its units are safe yet voids the warranty if ozone cleaners are used. Would be interesting if anyone with older S8, S9 and S10 machines has taken them apart and evaluated the foam. Other manufacturers like Devilbiss and Apex have left the market since Philips announced their recall. In Devilbis's case they first stated that their machines were fine because there were few if any complaints filed - no back up regarding actually testing their foam even though it's the same type of foam in the Philips units. Most of the air flow path in the Apex XT Fits and ZZZPap (same machine) runs through foam. Shortly after the recall they withdrew from the market. One YouTuber tested their Intellipap foam and found that it quickly degraded when exposed to ozone.

P.S. You should make the second claim on your machine. Always a good idea to have a backup. Also, if eligible, there is now a prioritization menu on the Philips recall web site that may allow you accelerate delivery of your replacement units.

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Re: Phillips / Philips Respironics recent recall notice discussion thread

Post by Rob K » Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:01 pm

My System One 560P is my back up machine so replacement hasn't been urgent. But after getting the run around for a year after registration and being forced to jump through extra hoops I decided to just remove the foam when I get around to it and never buy a Philips product again. My Resmed products seem much better anyway. I wish the people that are sticking with Philips would get there needs taken care of. It sure has been a bad experience for a lot of people.

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jtravel
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Re: Phillips / Philips Respironics recent recall notice discussion thread

Post by jtravel » Sat Jan 14, 2023 5:26 am

Lane101 wrote:
Tue Jan 10, 2023 5:04 pm

There is a good chance that many more of the machines on the market may have foam issues and that Philips, for all our complaining, is the only manufacturer that owned up to the issue. My Goodknight 420 CPAP from 2005-6 had foam that had turned to mush when I dissembled it prior to disposal a few years ago.
My Original Cpap was a Goodknight that had a large black foam chamber with a removable washable foam filter strip along the front of the machine. Used it for many years until the motor died. Never opened it up or checked the foam so I can't comment on that.
I remember many years ago that Resmed reported foam degradation issues but they stated is was due to the use of ozone cleaning and stated use of ozone would void the warranty.
Philips may have erred on the side of caution with the Voluntary recall and ended up just shooting themselves in both feet.
I have seen many examples of non-cpap Foam and plastics breaking down with age so it's not a uncommon occurrence.

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litetrek
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Re: Phillips / Philips Respironics recent recall notice discussion thread

Post by litetrek » Sat Jan 21, 2023 9:44 pm

Lane101 wrote:
Tue Jan 10, 2023 5:04 pm

P.S. You should make the second claim on your machine. Always a good idea to have a backup. Also, if eligible, there is now a prioritization menu on the Philips recall web site that may allow you accelerate delivery of your replacement units.
I just stumbled on to the so called prioritization option on their website tonight since I still don't have a machine. My status is listed as not being able to determine my settings because they can't reach my doctor or DME. I never received ANY form of communication telling me they needed additional information or that the option to make a choice lacking a prescription even exists. My doctor retired BEFORE the recall and the DME has been out of businesss for a long long time. I anticipated this problem and sent my prescription setttings and everything they requested 4 months ago following the instructions THEY provided. Now they say they don't have any of it and my prescription which was good for a year has expired. I got a call a few weeks ago from them to confim all of my information and was told at that time they have everything they need and my cpap would be shipped promptly.

I honestly don't want a DS2. I'm a design engineer and it is horrible badly flawed cheap machine design. People give it 1 and 2 star ratings. The complaints are all about the same and they are all about things that I will also have a problem with. I use OSCAR. DS2 encripts the data so OSCAR is no longer a resource I can use. Some people have the attitude that its a free device and we should be happy to get anything. My attitude is I unkowingly used a potentially unsafe device for over a decade and they owe me a decent machine at a minimum.

Anyhow, I'm conflicted about what to do. By accepting the DS2 auto CPAP I'll probably at least get something soon. But by waiting for a rebuilt CPAP I'll have to pay for and wait for another doctor appt to get a new prescription. My prescription hasn't changed in 20 years. I still will have the risk of getting the horrible DS2 regardless of the choice because it can run in the basic cpap mode.

Lane101
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Re: Phillips / Philips Respironics recent recall notice discussion thread

Post by Lane101 » Sat Jan 21, 2023 10:21 pm

jtravel wrote:
Sat Jan 14, 2023 5:26 am
Lane101 wrote:
Tue Jan 10, 2023 5:04 pm

There is a good chance that many more of the machines on the market may have foam issues and that Philips, for all our complaining, is the only manufacturer that owned up to the issue. My Goodknight 420 CPAP from 2005-6 had foam that had turned to mush when I dissembled it prior to disposal a few years ago.
My Original Cpap was a Goodknight that had a large black foam chamber with a removable washable foam filter strip along the front of the machine. Used it for many years until the motor died. Never opened it up or checked the foam so I can't comment on that.
I remember many years ago that Resmed reported foam degradation issues but they stated is was due to the use of ozone cleaning and stated use of ozone would void the warranty.
Philips may have erred on the side of caution with the Voluntary recall and ended up just shooting themselves in both feet.
I have seen many examples of non-cpap Foam and plastics breaking down with age so it's not a uncommon occurrence.
Same here, my first two CPAPs were Goodknight 420Gs. One for home and one for what was then weekly travel. Motor died on the first one from 2002 after many years of reliable use. Second one from 2006 was still working with almost 10,000 hours and relegated to occasional 12v battery use when camping. Last used in 2018 for a week long camping trip. In early 2019 I noticed a strong chemical odor coming out of it during testing and took it apart to see that all the foam had turned into mush. Tossed it and moved my System One from roughly 2014 into the camping 12v/backup role only to find out it was recalled two years later.

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Re: Phillips / Philips Respironics recent recall notice discussion thread

Post by Lane101 » Sat Jan 21, 2023 10:30 pm

Rob K wrote:
Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:01 pm
My System One 560P is my back up machine so replacement hasn't been urgent. But after getting the run around for a year after registration and being forced to jump through extra hoops I decided to just remove the foam when I get around to it and never buy a Philips product again. My Resmed products seem much better anyway. I wish the people that are sticking with Philips would get there needs taken care of. It sure has been a bad experience for a lot of people.
Not 100% sure as I've never disassembled my System One but from an old service manual it looks like that the sound abatement foam may just be in a sheet up against the casing and not in the actual air flow path. Seems easier to remove than on a DS1 where the foam is inside a sealed plastic blower assembly. If anyone has actually disassembled their SystemOne is this conclusion from the service manual correct?

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Re: Phillips / Philips Respironics recent recall notice discussion thread

Post by Lane101 » Sat Jan 21, 2023 10:38 pm

litetrek wrote:
Sat Jan 21, 2023 9:44 pm
Lane101 wrote:
Tue Jan 10, 2023 5:04 pm

P.S. You should make the second claim on your machine. Always a good idea to have a backup. Also, if eligible, there is now a prioritization menu on the Philips recall web site that may allow you accelerate delivery of your replacement units.
I just stumbled on to the so called prioritization option on their website tonight since I still don't have a machine. My status is listed as not being able to determine my settings because they can't reach my doctor or DME. I never received ANY form of communication telling me they needed additional information or that the option to make a choice lacking a prescription even exists. My doctor retired BEFORE the recall and the DME has been out of businesss for a long long time. I anticipated this problem and sent my prescription setttings and everything they requested 4 months ago following the instructions THEY provided. Now they say they don't have any of it and my prescription which was good for a year has expired. I got a call a few weeks ago from them to confim all of my information and was told at that time they have everything they need and my cpap would be shipped promptly.

I honestly don't want a DS2. I'm a design engineer and it is horrible badly flawed cheap machine design. People give it 1 and 2 star ratings. The complaints are all about the same and they are all about things that I will also have a problem with. I use OSCAR. DS2 encripts the data so OSCAR is no longer a resource I can use. Some people have the attitude that its a free device and we should be happy to get anything. My attitude is I unkowingly used a potentially unsafe device for over a decade and they owe me a decent machine at a minimum.

Anyhow, I'm conflicted about what to do. By accepting the DS2 auto CPAP I'll probably at least get something soon. But by waiting for a rebuilt CPAP I'll have to pay for and wait for another doctor appt to get a new prescription. My prescription hasn't changed in 20 years. I still will have the risk of getting the horrible DS2 regardless of the choice because it can run in the basic cpap mode.
They are not updating the system statuses in a timely manner. Call them up and ask for a new DS1 APAP instead of a DS2 - can't hurt. As my DS1s were new and under warranty I did that and noted that I'd only accept new DS1s, not refurbished units and also communicated a preference not to receive DS2s as replacement for my DS1s. Per my earlier post they just sent me two new DS1s. Note that it this may not work if Philips isn't making new DS1 humidifiers in your case as you are replacing a SystemOne.

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Re: Phillips / Philips Respironics recent recall notice discussion thread

Post by jtravel » Sun Jan 22, 2023 4:08 am

Here is a System one Foam removal Video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQnJAF3bm98
I Have not removed the foam in mine but it looks easy enough. I don't see where the Foam is actually in the airflow Path in the video but it must be or why the need to recall. I found this info online
"The whole bottom of the clear plastic shell around the motor, is Open at the bottom (with a Skirt around the outside edge) That big opening has three little air-intakes (one-way-valves) that fit into three holes punched in the filter foam. Pre-filtered air comes in from in intake hole in the back of the unit via 2 small pre-filters. It flows over, around the large 'toxic' filter and down into the filter before entering the 3 intakes valves on the bottom of the clear shell. You should change those two little pre-filters if they are dirty, they are now your only filter"
Also if waiting on a replacement check the Philips patient portal as it was recently updated with a no prescription option for a Auto Cpap.

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Re: Phillips / Philips Respironics recent recall notice discussion thread

Post by chunkyfrog » Sun Jan 22, 2023 9:26 am

Somebody needs to point 20/20 or 60 minutes to this thread.
Heads really should roll--and somebody could win a Pulitzer.

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Re: Phillips / Philips Respironics recent recall notice discussion thread

Post by ejbpesca » Sun Jan 22, 2023 11:17 am

litetrek wrote:
Sun Jan 08, 2023 2:38 pm

The fact that its been a year and I'm still waiting amazes me. I got a phone call last week confirming my name address, etc. Maybe it will just show up unexpectedly. I actually had two machines subject to the recall but I didn't want to be greedy and make two claims.
I guess I can hurry up and wait. A year and still no replacement. And, I thought it would be like a couple of weeks. I just registered my System One a couple of weeks ago. Philips is now silent.

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Re: Phillips / Philips Respironics recent recall notice discussion thread

Post by ejbpesca » Sun Jan 22, 2023 11:28 am

Would it not be so nice to have a testing device that could sample the outflow of a CPAP machine for anything detrimental to breathing, and give a readout of the problem.

Talked with my new DME last week. Advice was given to hope for a DS1 not a DS2 as a replacement. DME says they have had many problems trying to keep DS2s in service.

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