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Re: COVID 19, CPAP, Ventilator MEGA THREAD...everything go here please
Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:51 pm
by jnk...
Methods can differ from trial to trial, I believe, by design:
To make every injection as similar as possible in a vaccine study a good choice of placebo is the one that elicits an injection site reaction because the person is more likely to think they got the real deal. . . . The placebo could be the formulated mix of salts and left over impurities that are present with the vaccine under investigation minus the active ingredient (vaccine). Vaccines often also have an extra added ingredient, called the adjuvant, which works as an immune enhancer. The adjuvant is sometimes included in the placebo formulation.--
https://sciblogs.co.nz/diplomaticimmuni ... ne-trials/
Re: COVID 19, CPAP, Ventilator MEGA THREAD...everything go here please
Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:12 pm
by chunkyfrog
The bullfrog and I participated in a study of metformin's effect on inflammation hormones.
It took us all of two days to figure out who had the placebo.
He complained that his pills were bitter--mine were not.
Re: COVID 19, CPAP, Ventilator MEGA THREAD...everything go here please
Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:19 pm
by Pugsy
If people think that an injection of saline doesn't hurt.....you got another think coming.
Been there...done that and participated in all sorts of trials and experiments over the years. Saline can hurt like hell and cause quite a local reaction as well.
Re: COVID 19, CPAP, Ventilator MEGA THREAD...everything go here please
Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:59 am
by ChicagoGranny
In the case of the mRNA COVID-19 vaccine trials, the placebo effect will not be able to fool the antibody tests that are conducted at later dates. No one will be able to "think" themselves into creating COVID-19 antibodies.
Re: COVID 19, CPAP, Ventilator MEGA THREAD...everything go here please
Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:58 am
by McSleepy
The point is that in the case of Seth, the fact that he got this local flare reaction does not necessarily mean he was injected with the actual vaccine and not the placebo; that is, I question his doctor's "99%" assessment. Yes, placebo is usually inert, but even so, it can have a reaction. Furthermore, placebo is occasionally not inert, and yes, there are cases where placebo is even histamine based. The SARS-CoV-2 vaccine research has been rushed and carried under great pressure, with fierce competition, and political interventions, and all sorts of crazy incentives and influences. The secrecy of placebo use in such trials has been questioned, specifically in the use of non-inert ingredients (
https://www.crossfit.com/health/sometim ... -a-placebo) Even though the placebo effect has been known to be productive even when the patient is made aware of it, the idea is still to prevent them from having that knowledge, so it wouldn't be surprising if researchers took the liberty to include what they believe are additional measures.
I wish Seth the best with this trial, and I thank him for taking the extra risks in the name of science.
McSleepy
Re: COVID 19, CPAP, Ventilator MEGA THREAD...everything go here please
Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:33 pm
by jnk...
McSleepy wrote: ↑Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:58 am
I question his doctor's "99%" assessment.
A good doc knows to play along.
"Oh, yeeeees. I'm
absolutely suuuuuuure you got the vaccine, sir."
Let's just hope Seth didn't read any further in this thread. After all, as of this writing, there is no scientifically validated way to repair a busted placebo. I mean, how would one double-blind THAT?!
Re: COVID 19, CPAP, Ventilator MEGA THREAD...everything go here please
Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:27 pm
by DeepFriedDuck
It seems there is some attempt at humor here that I don't understand. The GP has an obligation to be truthful with the patient.
Re: COVID 19, CPAP, Ventilator MEGA THREAD...everything go here please
Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:54 pm
by DreamStalker
Re: COVID 19, CPAP, Ventilator MEGA THREAD...everything go here please
Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:03 am
by raisedfist
Welp I got rapid covid tested twice the other day, came into the hospital sick as a dog with pneumonia, fluid and inflammation of the lungs. somehow negative. antibiotics seem to be working. Still have no idea how I have gotten pneumonia twice this year, but not Covid. I am vaccinated as well.
Re: COVID 19, CPAP, Ventilator MEGA THREAD...everything go here please
Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:51 am
by zonker
raisedfist wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:03 am
Welp I got rapid covid tested twice the other day, came into the hospital sick as a dog with pneumonia, fluid and inflammation of the lungs. somehow negative. antibiotics seem to be working. Still have no idea how I have gotten pneumonia twice this year, but not Covid. I am vaccinated as well.
lucky duck! i mean, it's not good to have pneumonia but the other would be worse.
take care of yourself.
Re: COVID 19, CPAP, Ventilator MEGA THREAD...everything go here please
Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:32 pm
by raisedfist
zonker wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:51 am
raisedfist wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:03 am
Welp I got rapid covid tested twice the other day, came into the hospital sick as a dog with pneumonia, fluid and inflammation of the lungs. somehow negative. antibiotics seem to be working. Still have no idea how I have gotten pneumonia twice this year, but not Covid. I am vaccinated as well.
lucky duck! i mean, it's not good to have pneumonia but the other would be worse.
take care of yourself.
Yes I was even skeptical of the accuracy of the rapid test, but two in a row seems pretty safe. I'll probably get the PCR test done again if I continue to feel unwell, just for peace of mind. But I am starting to feel somewhat better, so I guess it was indeed a bacterial infection.
Making some health conscious changes going forward for sure. I haven't been taking care of myself for quite a while now.
Bad News
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:38 pm
by ChicagoGranny
This (
https://endpts.com/will-supply-chain-de ... 19-market/) is disappointing for the rest of us. But at least, you are getting yours. When do you get the second dose?
Edited: It might be surprising what they come up with to overcome the storage challenge. Still hopeful.
Re: COVID 19, CPAP, Ventilator MEGA THREAD...everything go here please
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:45 am
by ChicagoGranny
Corticosteroids should now be the first-line treatment for critically ill patients, the authors said. The only other drug shown to be effective in seriously ill patients, and only modestly at that, is remdesivir.
Steroids like dexamethasone, hydrocortisone and methylprednisolone are often used by doctors to tamp down the body’s immune system, alleviating inflammation, swelling and pain. Many Covid-19 patients die not of the virus, but of the body’s overreaction to the infection.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/heal ... s-who.html
Re: COVID 19, CPAP, Ventilator MEGA THREAD...everything go here please
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:24 am
by zonker
ChicagoGranny wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:45 am
Corticosteroids should now be the first-line treatment for critically ill patients, the authors said. The only other drug shown to be effective in seriously ill patients, and only modestly at that, is remdesivir.
Steroids like dexamethasone, hydrocortisone and methylprednisolone are often used by doctors to tamp down the body’s immune system, alleviating inflammation, swelling and pain. Many Covid-19 patients die not of the virus, but of the body’s overreaction to the infection.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/heal ... s-who.html
is it meta to quote a quote?
thanks for this. had heard of remdesivir early on. hadn't heard of these others.
Re: COVID 19, CPAP, Ventilator MEGA THREAD...everything go here please
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:34 pm
by jnk...
It's the same Catch-22 scenario with many diseases. If you give certain medications to help the body react to and fight the disease, you risk causing death by your having increased inflammation in the body. If you lower reaction to the disease by giving other medications that lessen inflammation, you risk causing death by your facilitating and furthering disease progression.
That is why any time someone heralds a medication that is 'proven to help a certain number of patients' who fall on one side or the other of the spectrum of disease-state vs. inflammation-state (or both simultaneously), you have to take it with a grain of salt. Helping a specific segment survive COVID-19 does not yet mean you have anything proven to help large segments of population when it comes to preventing, treating, or lessening the aftereffects of COVID-19.
A drowning man can be helped by removing him from the water. A dehydrated man can be helped by giving him water (and salts). Neither fact means you have stumbled on anything profound that prevents mass drownings or death from dehydration for all people everywhere in every circumstance. And it is, of course, always possible for a dehydrated man to drown.
There may be some statistical "significance" and some anecdotal observation, yes, but that doesn't mean there is yet any conclusive evidence for any universally helpful approach to the majority who develop serious complications from COVID-19 or that there is any tried and true way to figure out in advance which people will die from the disease, which people will die from their body's reaction to the disease, or which people will have both problems at the same time. And there is most certainly no way to spend the time with each patient to form a meaningful educated guess on which category he or she will fall into and how that might impact the extent of his or her recovery over time when kept alive.
So I pretty much ignore all the "hey, this stuff helps a lot of people" claims for COVID-19-treatment for now. It isn't a breakthrough until it is PROVEN to be a breakthrough. And that, sadly, takes a lot of time. Time we don't feel like we have.
Science ain't quick. But rushed science is bad science, and bad science is as likely to kill as to heal. It is the historical lesson of medical science that replays itself over and over again throughout the ages.
And that is my optimistic version.
