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Re: ResMed versus Respironics

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:51 am
by Bertha deBlues
Brounmoney wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:33 am
Bertha deBlues wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:26 am
Brounmoney wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:28 am
Real question. How does a lower minimum number help? 9 is plenty comfortable for me, and I have no issues falling asleep at that pressure.
When I first came here and to another apnea forum for advice, a question that more seasoned users often asked was: "How do you feel?" If you're feeling better with therapy, then it's working. It seems that some of the discussion in this thread has to do more with how OSCAR interprets the data. SleepyHead was more geared to ResMed machines, so a common complaint was that SleepyHead data was harder to interpret for Respironics machines. I have not tried OSCAR, but it sounds like it is also geared more to ResMed machines. Just my two cents worth.
Yeah I think the therapy is more about how I feel, and I have only gotten 2 nights in a month that I wake up more refreshed then I have in a long time. I dont think for me its the machine, but just me not being use to the process. I feel like the machine is working as it should.

And you may be right about OSCAR. I am pretty new to it all, but I do feel it does give me some good info.
From reading lots of posts from other users, it sounds like most people have a period of adjustment. It does get better. I'm not an expert, so all I can offer is encouragement to stick with it.

Re: ResMed versus Respironics

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:54 am
by Brounmoney
Bertha deBlues wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:51 am
Brounmoney wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:33 am
Bertha deBlues wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:26 am
Brounmoney wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:28 am
Real question. How does a lower minimum number help? 9 is plenty comfortable for me, and I have no issues falling asleep at that pressure.
When I first came here and to another apnea forum for advice, a question that more seasoned users often asked was: "How do you feel?" If you're feeling better with therapy, then it's working. It seems that some of the discussion in this thread has to do more with how OSCAR interprets the data. SleepyHead was more geared to ResMed machines, so a common complaint was that SleepyHead data was harder to interpret for Respironics machines. I have not tried OSCAR, but it sounds like it is also geared more to ResMed machines. Just my two cents worth.
Yeah I think the therapy is more about how I feel, and I have only gotten 2 nights in a month that I wake up more refreshed then I have in a long time. I dont think for me its the machine, but just me not being use to the process. I feel like the machine is working as it should.

And you may be right about OSCAR. I am pretty new to it all, but I do feel it does give me some good info.
From reading lots of posts from other users, it sounds like most people have a period of adjustment. It does get better. I'm not an expert, so all I can offer is encouragement to stick with it.
Trying my best. I want it to work so bad. I am tired of being tired every morning.

Re: ResMed versus Respironics

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:30 am
by Pugsy
Brounmoney wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:31 am
So my DreamStation look pretty proactive last night, ramping up the pressure before an event happened.
It ramped up because it sensed that some sort of early warning signs of an impending airway closure was happening but it still couldn't prevent it as you got the flag.
Brounmoney wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:28 am
How does a lower minimum number help? 9 is plenty comfortable for me, and I have no issues falling asleep at that pressure.
For some people a lower minimum is critical in terms of comfort and/or aerophagia prevention. If a person isn't comfortable they simply can't sleep so great and sleep is what all this is about.

I happen to be one of those people who got a chance to use both brands of apap machines. In fact I started my cpap therapy on a Respironics M series machine and then moved on to a System One once it became available. So for several years I did use a Respironics machine and like you I wondered what all the hooplah was with the ResMeds since I was perfectly happy with my Respironics machines.
Mine were all silent as well. None of the noise issues that I heard so many complaints about. I had a little bit of DarthVadar type of noise but that's a conductive thing and not related to the machine motor. I learned to tune that out. Hubby reported zero noise from the machine itself. In fact he would often poke me to wake me up to tell me to put the mask on because he heard nothing...but I already had the mask on. :lol:

I am one of those people who can use less minimum with ResMed to get the same results...with the Respironics I had to use a 10 cm minimum (and I used Flex at 2 exhale relief). With ResMed I could use 7 minimum and exhale relief of 3 and actually get better results.
Now while I could use the 10....7 inhale and 4 exhale (EPR 3) was a whole lot more comfortable for me. I fell asleep a little easier and never had the DarthVadar sounds with it. I have been fortunate in that aerophagia has never been a big deal for me but if it was my overall lower numbers with the ResMed could have been a critical thing for me in terms of comfort and sleep quality.

Lots of people get Respironics machines and do quite well with them but some people do better for any number of reasons with a ResMed. Since none of us have crystal balls we simply don't know who those people are and when we get asked which machine to recommend we go with the one that MOST people seem to do better with and we also draw upon our own personal experience. That's all we can do....
So when a new person comes here and asks what machine to get....we have no idea what pressures they are going to be needing or if they will have aerophagia issues or what their comfort levels will be.
We draw upon our experience and suggest what we feel gives a new person the best chance of success.

Respironics machines aren't crap machines. I still own a System One machine myself. I wouldn't own it if I thought it was a crap machine.

Your adjustment issues...you probably would have those same issues if you used a ResMed machine....probably.
Some people just have a harder time getting used to all this no matter what machine they are using. You drew the short straw.
It's too bad though that when people have adjustment issues that they can't at least try a different brand to see if the different brand makes any difference or not in their adjustment issues.

I think most people would do well with any of the brands....any brand when the settings are optimized. Key word being "optimized" because optimized in one brand doesn't mean the same setting in another brand would be "optimal".
There's always going to be a few outliers though...a few that actually do better with one brand over another.
We have a few people who have tried ResMed and Respironics and actually prefer Respironics but MOST people who have tried both end up preferring ResMed.

I don't care which brand someone uses as long as they use it and are happy with what they get out of it.
But when someone asks me which brand or model machine to get....then I draw upon my own personal experience and the experience of others who are here on this forum and offer my opinion. It is what it is.

Re: ResMed versus Respironics

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:05 am
by Brounmoney
Pugsy wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:30 am

Brounmoney wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:28 am
How does a lower minimum number help? 9 is plenty comfortable for me, and I have no issues falling asleep at that pressure.
For some people a lower minimum is critical in terms of comfort and/or aerophagia prevention. If a person isn't comfortable they simply can't sleep so great and sleep is what all this is about.

I happen to be one of those people who got a chance to use both brands of apap machines. In fact I started my cpap therapy on a Respironics M series machine and then moved on to a System One once it became available. So for several years I did use a Respironics machine and like you I wondered what all the hooplah was with the ResMeds since I was perfectly happy with my Respironics machines.
Mine were all silent as well. None of the noise issues that I heard so many complaints about. I had a little bit of DarthVadar type of noise but that's a conductive thing and not related to the machine motor. I learned to tune that out. Hubby reported zero noise from the machine itself. In fact he would often poke me to wake me up to tell me to put the mask on because he heard nothing...but I already had the mask on. :lol:

I am one of those people who can use less minimum with ResMed to get the same results...with the Respironics I had to use a 10 cm minimum (and I used Flex at 2 exhale relief). With ResMed I could use 7 minimum and exhale relief of 3 and actually get better results.
Now while I could use the 10....7 inhale and 4 exhale (EPR 3) was a whole lot more comfortable for me. I fell asleep a little easier and never had the DarthVadar sounds with it. I have been fortunate in that aerophagia has never been a big deal for me but if it was my overall lower numbers with the ResMed could have been a critical thing for me in terms of comfort and sleep quality.

Lots of people get Respironics machines and do quite well with them but some people do better for any number of reasons with a ResMed. Since none of us have crystal balls we simply don't know who those people are and when we get asked which machine to recommend we go with the one that MOST people seem to do better with and we also draw upon our own personal experience. That's all we can do....
So when a new person comes here and asks what machine to get....we have no idea what pressures they are going to be needing or if they will have aerophagia issues or what their comfort levels will be.
We draw upon our experience and suggest what we feel gives a new person the best chance of success.

Respironics machines aren't crap machines. I still own a System One machine myself. I wouldn't own it if I thought it was a crap machine.

Your adjustment issues...you probably would have those same issues if you used a ResMed machine....probably.
Some people just have a harder time getting used to all this no matter what machine they are using. You drew the short straw.
It's too bad though that when people have adjustment issues that they can't at least try a different brand to see if the different brand makes any difference or not in their adjustment issues.

I think most people would do well with any of the brands....any brand when the settings are optimized. Key word being "optimized" because optimized in one brand doesn't mean the same setting in another brand would be "optimal".
There's always going to be a few outliers though...a few that actually do better with one brand over another.
We have a few people who have tried ResMed and Respironics and actually prefer Respironics but MOST people who have tried both end up preferring ResMed.

I don't care which brand someone uses as long as they use it and are happy with what they get out of it.
But when someone asks me which brand or model machine to get....then I draw upon my own personal experience and the experience of others who are here on this forum and offer my opinion. It is what it is.
Thank you!! I really appreciate those insights, and I really respect your opinion. It does really suck that I don't have the option to try Resmed and see if it makes any difference. I have already spend so much money on the process out of my pocket, I just can't go out and buy a Resmed machine. It does seem like most people here recommend Resmed, but I just cant get my hands on one. Maybe one day.

Re: ResMed versus Respironics

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:07 am
by Brounmoney
Pugsy wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:30 am
Brounmoney wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:31 am
So my DreamStation look pretty proactive last night, ramping up the pressure before an event happened.
It ramped up because it sensed that some sort of early warning signs of an impending airway closure was happening but it still couldn't prevent it as you got the flag.

So with that in mind, is there something else I should do? I have gone to auto and have it set at 9 min and 13 max. At 9 min I have no issues getting to sleep, so I feel like that is a good min for me. And I totally agree I am one those that got the short straw and am just going to struggle with it.

Re: ResMed versus Respironics

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:40 am
by Pugsy
Brounmoney wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:07 am
Pugsy wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:30 am
Brounmoney wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:31 am
So my DreamStation look pretty proactive last night, ramping up the pressure before an event happened.
It ramped up because it sensed that some sort of early warning signs of an impending airway closure was happening but it still couldn't prevent it as you got the flag.

So with that in mind, is there something else I should do? I have gone to auto and have it set at 9 min and 13 max. At 9 min I have no issues getting to sleep, so I feel like that is a good min for me. And I totally agree I am one those that got the short straw and am just going to struggle with it.
To totally eradicate all apnea events is pretty much a futile effort (what with false positives and all) so I don't dwell on AHI so much but I do dwell on sleep quality and how I feel.

Way back in the early days of my therapy with my M series machine (about 6 months into therapy) I decided to be a lab rat and see just how much (if any) increasing the minimum from 10 cm might affect anything at all. So I decided to do a real experiment and try to keep good records (which included sleep quality and how I felt) and systematically increase the minimum.
So I increased the minimum 0.5 cm (left it for a week) before increasing again...and over 6 weeks I worked my way up to 13 cm minimum.
I have always kept the maximum at 20 do deal with REM stage sleep pressure needs...I have seen 18 cm on occasion during probable REM where my OSA is 5 times worse than non REM sleep and I have substantial increases in pressure needs to go along with it. Not always but fairly regularly.

I aborted the experiment after a week at 13 cm minimum and after evaluating all the things I evaluated.
AHI never really changed beyond normal nightly variations (which now I realize was probably false positives getting flagged ....back then we didn't get flow rate graphs to evaluate sleep vs awake)....hours slept never really changed....how I felt during the day never really changed.

At some point you might want to think about making yourself a real lab rat and just see if more minimum makes any difference to you.

Now to be fair...I never had the issue of yanking the mask off in the middle of the night like you do. I have done it but so rare I can count the number of times on one hand over 10 years. I don't know why your brain doesn't like the mask and wants it gone....but it doesn't. Until you get that issue resolved you really aren't going to stand much of a chance of having consistent decent results in terms of sleep quality and how you feel during the day.

Re: ResMed versus Respironics

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:53 am
by Brounmoney
Pugsy wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:40 am
Brounmoney wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:07 am
Pugsy wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:30 am
Brounmoney wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:31 am
So my DreamStation look pretty proactive last night, ramping up the pressure before an event happened.
It ramped up because it sensed that some sort of early warning signs of an impending airway closure was happening but it still couldn't prevent it as you got the flag.

So with that in mind, is there something else I should do? I have gone to auto and have it set at 9 min and 13 max. At 9 min I have no issues getting to sleep, so I feel like that is a good min for me. And I totally agree I am one those that got the short straw and am just going to struggle with it.
To totally eradicate all apnea events is pretty much a futile effort (what with false positives and all) so I don't dwell on AHI so much but I do dwell on sleep quality and how I feel.

Way back in the early days of my therapy with my M series machine (about 6 months into therapy) I decided to be a lab rat and see just how much (if any) increasing the minimum from 10 cm might affect anything at all. So I decided to do a real experiment and try to keep good records (which included sleep quality and how I felt) and systematically increase the minimum.
So I increased the minimum 0.5 cm (left it for a week) before increasing again...and over 6 weeks I worked my way up to 13 cm minimum.
I have always kept the maximum at 20 do deal with REM stage sleep pressure needs...I have seen 18 cm on occasion during probable REM where my OSA is 5 times worse than non REM sleep and I have substantial increases in pressure needs to go along with it. Not always but fairly regularly.

I aborted the experiment after a week at 13 cm minimum and after evaluating all the things I evaluated.
AHI never really changed beyond normal nightly variations (which now I realize was probably false positives getting flagged ....back then we didn't get flow rate graphs to evaluate sleep vs awake)....hours slept never really changed....how I felt during the day never really changed.

At some point you might want to think about making yourself a real lab rat and just see if more minimum makes any difference to you.

Now to be fair...I never had the issue of yanking the mask off in the middle of the night like you do. I have done it but so rare I can count the number of times on one hand over 10 years. I don't know why your brain doesn't like the mask and wants it gone....but it doesn't. Until you get that issue resolved you really aren't going to stand much of a chance of having consistent decent results in terms of sleep quality and how you feel during the day.
Very true, and would love to fix that. The taking off the mask is what is stopping me right now. I wake up and put it back on, but it seems like a never ending battle. Cant figure out what it is that triggers me to do that.

I will say I have had success though. Before I started therapy, I suffered from extreme night terrors. Since being on the machine, I have not had one episode of that. I think that is the one result I have see from therapy. Fixing the mask thing will be huge I think.

Re: ResMed versus Respironics

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:10 pm
by palerider
Brounmoney wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:31 am
So my DreamStation look pretty proactive last night, ramping up the pressure before an event happened.
You are *wrong*.
No machine out there raises pressure *before* anything happens, no matter what you want to believe.

Facts are facts, again, no matter what you want to believe.
Brounmoney wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:31 am
I feel like you want the pressure to go up to keep events from happening, which from my eye seems like that's what the DreamStation is doing.
Your eye is deceiving you, because you're not looking close enough.

The behavior of the machine is well documented.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... der-8-425/ (It hasn't changed from "Respironics System One REMstar Auto")

The fact that it's less capable is well documented.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5005142/

Believe whatever you want to, but I'm done wasting my time with you.

Re: ResMed versus Respironics

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:11 pm
by Wulfman...
tweeter829 wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:03 pm
It seems that the majority of people here prefer the ResMed. Why is that? When I was diagnosed it was recommended that I get the Respironics Dreamstation, so that is what I have. If I remember correctly, the insurance company will pay for a machine every five years, so in less I am willing to buy a ResMed myself I will have to roll with this one for quite a while. I have no problems with it, but that could simply be because I don't know how much better off I would be with the ResMed.
Probably because MOST of those who favor ResMed are unaware of some of the history behind their heavy-handed policies years ago. Then, they strong-armed some of the others ( Respironics and F&P ) to follow suit. ResMed was also the first to prohibit the vendors/sellers from selling their equipment out of the country where the sellers reside. Example: ResMed users in Canada couldn't order a machine from a seller in the U.S. Then, the others adopted the same policies.

Consequently, I swore years ago that I would NEVER own a ResMed machine (I'm sort of stuck with their masks because I haven't been able to find a better one). I also haven't purchased any Respironics or Philips/Respironics machines past the timeline when they joined the policies of ResMed.......and WON'T! And, back in 2009 (I believe), Respironics was purchased by a foreign company.......Philips.

Anyway, these search links somewhat tell the stories behind these irritating policies.

search.php?keywords=%22ResMed+policies%22

search.php?keywords=%22MAP+policies%22

But, since I don't use ranges of pressures or exhale relief, I believe any of them would serve my therapy purposes with similar results. After all, straight pressure is straight pressure and most of the event detecting is close enough for reporting purposes.

Use what works best for you, but that's my story and I'm stickin' to it. :)
In short, I dislike them both.


Den

.

Re: ResMed versus Respironics

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:31 pm
by palerider
Wulfman... wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:11 pm
In short, I dislike them both.
Helpful as ever, den...

I guess it's Chinese knockoffs for you if all your antiques wear out.

Re: ResMed versus Respironics

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:46 pm
by Brounmoney
palerider wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:10 pm
Brounmoney wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:31 am
So my DreamStation look pretty proactive last night, ramping up the pressure before an event happened.
You are *wrong*.
No machine out there raises pressure *before* anything happens, no matter what you want to believe.

Facts are facts, again, no matter what you want to believe.
Brounmoney wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:31 am
I feel like you want the pressure to go up to keep events from happening, which from my eye seems like that's what the DreamStation is doing.
Your eye is deceiving you, because you're not looking close enough.

The behavior of the machine is well documented.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... der-8-425/ (It hasn't changed from "Respironics System One REMstar Auto")

The fact that it's less capable is well documented.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5005142/

Believe whatever you want to, but I'm done wasting my time with you.
Funny that you link me to old Respironics devices, and not even the one I am referring to. You may very well be right, but all you have done is shown me tests done on older Respironics machines and not the one I am using.

Re: ResMed versus Respironics

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:46 pm
by Wulfman...
palerider wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:31 pm
Wulfman... wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:11 pm
In short, I dislike them both.
Helpful as ever, den...

I guess it's Chinese knockoffs for you if all your antiques wear out.
I couldn't possibly live that long! I figure they've collectively got at least 40 years of use in them. Many are like brand new or very lightly used.
But, IF I were to buy any newer machine, it would probably be a P/R........"something".


Den

.

Re: ResMed versus Respironics

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:28 pm
by Bertha deBlues
Wulfman... wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:11 pm
tweeter829 wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:03 pm
It seems that the majority of people here prefer the ResMed. Why is that? When I was diagnosed it was recommended that I get the Respironics Dreamstation, so that is what I have. If I remember correctly, the insurance company will pay for a machine every five years, so in less I am willing to buy a ResMed myself I will have to roll with this one for quite a while. I have no problems with it, but that could simply be because I don't know how much better off I would be with the ResMed.
Probably because MOST of those who favor ResMed are unaware of some of the history behind their heavy-handed policies years ago. Then, they strong-armed some of the others ( Respironics and F&P ) to follow suit. ResMed was also the first to prohibit the vendors/sellers from selling their equipment out of the country where the sellers reside. Example: ResMed users in Canada couldn't order a machine from a seller in the U.S. Then, the others adopted the same policies.

Consequently, I swore years ago that I would NEVER own a ResMed machine (I'm sort of stuck with their masks because I haven't been able to find a better one). I also haven't purchased any Respironics or Philips/Respironics machines past the timeline when they joined the policies of ResMed.......and WON'T! And, back in 2009 (I believe), Respironics was purchased by a foreign company.......Philips.

Anyway, these search links somewhat tell the stories behind these irritating policies.

search.php?keywords=%22ResMed+policies%22

search.php?keywords=%22MAP+policies%22

But, since I don't use ranges of pressures or exhale relief, I believe any of them would serve my therapy purposes with similar results. After all, straight pressure is straight pressure and most of the event detecting is close enough for reporting purposes.

Use what works best for you, but that's my story and I'm stickin' to it. :)
In short, I dislike them both.


Den

.
Wow. I had no idea of the history of these companies. Thanks, Wulfman.

Re: ResMed versus Respironics

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:46 pm
by palerider
Brounmoney wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:46 pm
Funny that you link me to old Respironics devices, and not even the one I am referring to. You may very well be right, but all you have done is shown me tests done on older Respironics machines and not the one I am using.
Because the algorithm has not changed. As I said above.

Nobody has bothered to do new tests, because the old ones are still valid for Philips Respironics Dreamstation Auto machines. :roll:

Re: ResMed versus Respironics

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:31 pm
by tweeter829
palerider wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:10 pm
Brounmoney wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:31 am
So my DreamStation look pretty proactive last night, ramping up the pressure before an event happened.
You are *wrong*.
No machine out there raises pressure *before* anything happens, no matter what you want to believe.

Facts are facts, again, no matter what you want to believe.
Brounmoney wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:31 am
I feel like you want the pressure to go up to keep events from happening, which from my eye seems like that's what the DreamStation is doing.
Your eye is deceiving you, because you're not looking close enough.

The behavior of the machine is well documented.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... der-8-425/ (It hasn't changed from "Respironics System One REMstar Auto")

The fact that it's less capable is well documented.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5005142/

Believe whatever you want to, but I'm done wasting my time with you.
Thank you Palerider. Whenever I have a bad day, I know that I can come on this forum and be lifted up by one of your inspiring, helpful, and caring posts. You are a little ball of sunshine.