Respironics Dreamstation - huge unit-to-unit noise variation

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
camper
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Respironics Dreamstation - huge unit-to-unit noise variation

Post by camper » Wed May 29, 2019 12:43 pm

I just had a 2nd home visit from a DME provider's technician. (My DME provider=AHCAH), to replace the mask with one that works better for me.

I mentioned the amount of noise seemed excessive to me - I have a lot of trouble getting to sleep with it. It has both air vent (i.e., Darth Vader) type noise, and a whine.

He switched out my mask for a Resmed AirFit F20 (male, Silicone - not listed in this board's options - so I called it an Airfit F20 For Her) , which is substantially quieter than the Respironics Nasal and Full Face masks I have tried. Partly because the others leaked on me, but also, I think, for other reasons. Perhaps it has something to do with the hyped Airfit F20's "QuietVent Technology".

But he said that there is a lot of variation, from unit-to-unit, with Dreamstations, in terms of noise, and that if it continues to bother me, I should tell the DME provider, and they would switch me out with another machine. He claims all the noise should be that produced simply from going from CPAP pressure to atmospheric pressure.

BTW, he said there should be no detectable whine on the quietest units.

I'm a little puzzled here. This is a pretty high end (in terms of cost) unit. Shouldn't they all be super-quiet? They are advertised as nearly whisper quiet - mine definitely isn't - more like a somewhat quiet conversation.

I wonder if the same variation substantially affects other brands and models.

Anyway, just a heads up - if your CPAP machine makes too much noise, it may be the individual unit, rather than the brand or model. But I don't know if the manufacturer will cover the switch under warranty - in my case, the DME provider will.

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palerider
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Re: Respironics Dreamstation - huge unit-to-unit noise variation

Post by palerider » Wed May 29, 2019 4:13 pm

camper wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 12:43 pm
BTW, he said there should be no detectable whine on the quietest units.
Maybe for people that are hard of hearing ..
camper wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 12:43 pm
I'm a little puzzled here. This is a pretty high end (in terms of cost) unit. Shouldn't they all be super-quiet? They are advertised as nearly whisper quiet - mine definitely isn't - more like a somewhat quiet conversation.
The dreamstation cpaps and apaps aren't really "high end", or well engineered.
camper wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 12:43 pm
wonder if the same variation substantially affects other brands and models.
Not property functioning ones.

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Re: Respironics Dreamstation - huge unit-to-unit noise variation

Post by 0xfeedface » Thu May 30, 2019 2:34 am

I have found that my DreamStation itself makes very little audible noise. But it transmits vibrations via its rubber pads to the nightstand and from there onto my bed. I could significantly reduce the noise by placing the DreamStation on a folded towel. A mousepad or something similar should also do the trick.

camper
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Re: Respironics Dreamstation - huge unit-to-unit noise variation

Post by camper » Thu May 30, 2019 1:31 pm

palerider wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 4:13 pm
camper wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 12:43 pm
BTW, he said there should be no detectable whine on the quietest units.
Maybe for people that are hard of hearing ..
You obviously have very negative feelings about the DreamStation machines.

Are these negative feelings based on your own use? And was it based on one unit, or did you in fact try many units, and select the quietest one?

Also, DreamStations are much quieter if you:

1. Use them with the humidifier attached.
2. Fill the humidifier with water to the fill line. (That is somewhat expensive if you use distilled water. But I'm told you can use tap water if you clean the humidifier once/week with a weak vinegar solution to eliminate hard water deposits.)
3. Place the machine as far as possible from your ears. (It should also be placed below your face, so it the water somehow spills, it does not flow through the tubes and drown you.)

BTW, I just tried the F20 mask for a night. The improvement was quite dramatic. It fit my face perfectly (no detectable leakage against the face). In addition, the vent is farther from the face than the vents on the other masks I tried, and of much quieter design. (Masks must have vents - so that you do not suffocate you lose power, and, if I understand correctly, so that breathing-in can use nearby fresh air instead of stale, oxygen deficient air from breathing-out. But the Respironics masks I tried before create their vents by having simple holes in the mask, which creates a lot of noise, closer to one's face.

Because of these things, and the fact that the other masks, by leaking, forced the machine to work much harder to maintain pressure, the use of this mask eliminated most of the noise. (NB: That does not imply it would be an improvement for everyone. Just as any given shoe will fit some people and not others, I presume any given mask will fit some faces and not others.)

The reduction in noise meant I got to sleep a lot more quickly, and stayed that way.

There is still a slight whine, that I would like to eliminate. I may try the former poster's suggestion of placing it on a towel. I may also improvise a noise-reducing enclosure.

And I may see if I can visit the DME provider's office, and swap this machine for the quietest unit I can find there.

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Re: Respironics Dreamstation - huge unit-to-unit noise variation

Post by raisedfist » Thu May 30, 2019 2:12 pm

I can tell you from personal experience with both PR and ResMed machines that PR machines are noisier. The only noise I experience with a ResMed is coming from the mask itself. I've used a few different PR machines and they all have a noise that is distinct from the mask itself.

Unit to Unit noise variation only lends to the fact that clearly the internals and/or quality control of the PR machines are inferior. Where as ResMed machines have excellent quality control due to being manufactured in the USA, Japan & Australia - all of which have excellent track records. ResMed itself targets and wins over the home use market. Where PR focuses and shines is in the hospital involving critical care with their advanced ventilators. Both companies are good at what they do, but your average OSA & CSA patient on here largely prefers ResMed. Just look at the design of home use PR machines; they look like dinosaurs compared to ResMed machines.

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camper
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Re: Respironics Dreamstation - huge unit-to-unit noise variation

Post by camper » Fri May 31, 2019 8:42 pm

I'd like to give thanks and praise for Dave, a respiratory therapist and (I think) vice president of American Health Care at Home (AHCAH), in Baltimore, my DME provider.

Not only has this company allowed me to exchange masks - twice - within two weeks, but I brought my Philips Respironics DreamStation Auto CPAP machine in to their office today, to see what could be done about the noise, and he went way beyond the call of duty helping me, even stayed a bit after normal hours.

The PR DreamStation Auto machine (+humidifier+heated tubes) I was using had made two types of noise, which made it hard for me to get to sleep:
  • Wind noise. This was substantially reduced by switching to an ResMed AirFit F20 mask, which fits my face perfectly, and has a quieter vent than the PR masks I had tried earlier.
  • Bearing noise whine. I GUESS this is the noise that makes it hardest for me to fall asleep.
He was willing to exchange the machine for another of the same model, or a ResMed AirSense 10.

At the office, we tried two other Dreamstation Auto machines. Both had much less bearing noise. In addition, he noted a malfunction in the original unit - that it delivered more pressure than the other two machines, and the others mentioned below, while operating at the same nominal pressure. That malfunction might not matter in the end, since the machine is set to operate in auto mode - but added to the fact that it had earlier failed to detect major mask leak (e.g., when I tried NOT wearing a mask or attaching a mask at all), I conclude it was a lemon - or maybe a reconditioned used and abused unit.

We also tried two ResMed AirSense 10 machines (built in humidifier+heated tubes). They had no bearing noise that I could detect (though we will see if that lasts the night, after pressure rises), and about the same level of wind noise.

I have had little luck so far with the DreamStation. In addition to trouble getting to sleep, an analysis of the machine's data produced by the OSCAR, says I continue to snore, and have Apnea and Hypoxia events, though I have no idea whether the machine can correctly detect Apnea and Hypoxia, since it lacks an Oxygen sensor.

So in desperation I decided to try switching to one of the AirSense 10 machines, because some people in this forum prefer ResMed. (He did warn me that ResMed machines respond more quickly and strongly to Apnea events, which wakes some people. He said more of his customers preferred the DreamStation machines.)

The DME provider has to absorb the cost of the DreamStation tubing, and the water reservoir, because the rules don't allow them to pass these on to a new patient, so he gave them to me, in case I decide to switch back to the DreamStation.

All this at no cost to me!

I initially thought that the decision of my insurance company to go through a DME provider, instead of buying the equipment directly, was a waste of money. But this particular guy, at least, at this particular company, has provided very good service, to me. If the insurance had simply bought me one machine, and one mask, I might have had more trouble exchanging masks and machines.

The AirSense 10 is in theory a slightly more expensive machine. It is slightly more compact (though perhaps not if I omit the humidifier), but it uses more electricity (a potential problem if backpacking), and requires a somewhat inefficient adaptor (a voltage doubler or equivalent, to reach 24VDC) if powered by a 12V automotive or marine battery.

Anyway - great job, Dave!

P.S. If the wind noise remains too high, I may try one of the available CPAP mufflers - anyone know how well they work? Also, Dave and others at the DME said using a fan, which is an alternate non-varying white noise source - apparently that helps some people.

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camper
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Re: Respironics Dreamstation - huge unit-to-unit noise variation

Post by camper » Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:13 am

Report from first night with the second machine (ResMed AirSense 10):

By the time I got home from the DME office, followed by dinner and a bit of time at the gym, another small snack (I'm diabetic, and diabetics are supposed to eat many small meals), and a little web browsing (which I shouldn't do before sleep, because it might interfere with sleep), and finished setting up the second machine, it was 2:30 AM.

I got to sleep much more easily than with the defective DreamStation because
1. It is easier to breath than with the other machine - I don't know why.
2. There was much less noise. However, there was still some noise (more a slight hum than obvious bearing noise, as well as wind noise) while breathing in (why? - I think the other machine was louder breathing out).

I slept 3.5 hours, but then woke at about 6 AM, because
1. I had fit the mask slightly loose, and slept on my side (my normal position, because my mouth tends to stay closed a bit more often, leaving it slightly less dry). There was a slight leakage noise. I found the mask leak test function built into this machine very convenient to use.
2. I think morning light was starting to come through the curtains. That part won't be an issue in the future, if I will get to bed earlier.
3. I didn't quite need to go to the bathroom yet - but that may have contributed to waking up.

After waking, I could not get back to sleep because of the light and - it the noise. I tried for several hours, until about 9 AM, and gave up. I tried going back to my back to - this full face mask applies just enough pressure to keep my mouth closed, AFAIK. With this mask, maybe that will work better, because I think it was the pressure of the mask against my pillow that caused the fit to leak.

Partial success:
1. According to both a smartphone SnoreRx app, and the machine itself, as reported by OSCAR, I did not snore. That is quite unusual for me.
2. According to the machine, as reported by OSCAR, there were no respiratory events, except some false events that occurred while I was actually setting up the mask.

Interestingly enough, with this machine, at least while awake, the extra pressure causes my breaths to be deeper, filling my lungs more.

Would one of the quieter, non-defective DreamStations have worked too? I don't know. For now, I will stay with the AirSense 10, since it has done better. (In other words, this was a poorly controlled experiment - too many variables - but I don't care, because I got at least some of the hoped for results.

That said - the remaining machine noise, and the need for electricity, are both significant inconveniences for social sleeping arrangements, especially on group camping trips. I would still prefer a passive system.

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Re: Respironics Dreamstation - huge unit-to-unit noise variation

Post by palerider » Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:59 am

camper wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 1:31 pm
palerider wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 4:13 pm
camper wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 12:43 pm
BTW, he said there should be no detectable whine on the quietest units.
Maybe for people that are hard of hearing ..
You obviously have very negative feelings about the DreamStation machines.

Are these negative feelings based on your own use? And was it based on one unit, or did you in fact try many units, and select the quietest one?
My knowledge is from having disassembled multiple Philips Respironics machines and more Resmed machines.

Resmeds are engineered better, they're designed better, they're built better. they ship better travel cases, they hold more water, they are quieter, they provide better data, the auto on/off function works MUCH better, they take up 2/3rds of the space on the table, along with other pluses, most importantly, they are more responsive to changing needs throughout the night.

Philips Respironics doesn't make a bad machine... they're a solid second place in the machines out there, but about the only thing that they're better at is that the 12volt option cord costs less than the Resmed 12v cord does.

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Re: Respironics Dreamstation - huge unit-to-unit noise variation

Post by chunkyfrog » Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:13 pm

What noise?
Oh, yeah, I have a ResMed. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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Re: Respironics Dreamstation - huge unit-to-unit noise variation

Post by Dan_McD » Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:31 pm

The only experience I have with ResMed is with their masks. I have not had any experience with their machines. I have used the DreamStation w/humidifier for just over 6 months. I have not had any problems with the machine. I don't hear any noises and it doesn't vibrate or shake. I have downloaded sleepy head and now OSCAR without a problem. It does give me the proper feedback as far as I know. When I have tried or experimented with different settings, those setting changes do show up on OSCAR. I do change the filter often, I only use distilled water and I clean my hose with vinegar about every 2 weeks. I vacillated back and forth whether I should comment, but I thought my experience might be helpful to someone. If I had it to do over I probably would have requested the ResMed just based on the members experience here, but I didn't have that knowlege when I first started the sleep apnea ordeal. Just my experience with the DS.

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camper
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Re: Respironics Dreamstation - huge unit-to-unit noise variation

Post by camper » Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:26 am

Last night I used a fan. I put it right next to me and let it blow over my skin, because I read somewhere that people sleep better when it's cool - and, while fans don't cool the air, they cool the skin.

I had a good night's sleep. Also, I got to sleep very quickly, both at first, and when I woke a couple times to go to the bathroom.

With the fan on, I can't hear the machine, and can only tell it is on if I create a deliberate mask leak. I doubt I could have heard the DreamStation either, but I'll stick with the AirSense 10.

The fan is much louder than either machine, but the sound is constant, and doesn't keep me awake. (I'm using one of those big 20" fixed position fans, not an oscillatory fan.)

Oddly enough, I think the fan makes much more difference, to me, than the CPAP machine (which has previously had a negative effect on sleep soundness - but that may be because it's new to me), though I was on CPAP too last night.

OSCAR does show several "Clear Airway" and "Obstructive" events - but, based on timing, I think they all occurred while I was awake. In particular, when I shift my position in bed (which I only do while awake), I tend to hold my breath while tightening my abdominal muscles while moving. (I don't really understand why, but everyone tends to hold their breath during muscular effort, or when doing a balance exercise, unless they consciously "remember to breath". Which is odd, because if you hold your breath long enough, it interferes with both muscular effort and balance.)

AFAIK, the two primary issues that CPAP is supposed to address are soundness of sleep and OSA induced oxygen deprivation - right?

I guess the only way to check soundness of sleep, aside from how much sleep I need, and overall tiredness, would be to get an EEG - which is really expensive, and the connections that required during my sleep studies made me very uncomfortable, and interfered a lot with sleep, so I'll pass.

So I guess the next step is to figure out if I can find a cheap but reasonably good recording pulse oximeter, or one that can feed into OSCAR. If CPAP or a fan reduces oxygen deprivation events (OSCAR doesn't show any from last night, but my CPAP machine doesn't have an oxygen sensor), that would be a wonderful thing.

Some people worry that potential sleep partners might not like CPAP machines. Unfortunately, a fan might be even more disliked, because it would affect both people, or in a group camping situation, everyone.

And a fan might be just as problematic in backcountry camping situations without external electricity as CPAP. Wonder if a little fan would do.

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Re: Respironics Dreamstation - huge unit-to-unit noise variation

Post by Muse-Inc » Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:38 am

camper wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:13 am
...It is easier to breath than with the other machine - I don't know why...
Each mfg's devices uses different breathing patterns, one will match your nature breathing rhythm better than the others. When we had a local support group of forum members, one was having lots of issues, we suggested he try another mfg's APAP and one member has a spare he borrowed to try and sure enough he reported that his breathing was much easier. IMHO you can't get restful sleep if you're fighting the xPAP's breathing rhythm all night long. Just a shame that we can't trial different machines to see which one works best for us.

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Re: Respironics Dreamstation - huge unit-to-unit noise variation

Post by Dan_McD » Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:19 am

Muse-Inc wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:38 am
camper wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:13 am
...It is easier to breath than with the other machine - I don't know why...
Each mfg's devices uses different breathing patterns, one will match your nature breathing rhythm better than the others. When we had a local support group of forum members, one was having lots of issues, we suggested he try another mfg's APAP and one member has a spare he borrowed to try and sure enough he reported that his breathing was much easier. IMHO you can't get restful sleep if you're fighting the xPAP's breathing rhythm all night long. Just a shame that we can't trial different machines to see which one works best for us.
*
Maybe that is why I get along so well with the Dreamstation. Sometimes, like mid morning, I will break the mask seal to see if it is working. It works really smooth. Other than getting use to cumbersome masks, the machine itself does a good job for me. Once I learned how to adjust all the settings, like flex, mask and so on, I haven't changed settings for months. Now the mask is another story. :roll: Funny how some people hate the DS. :)

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Re: Respironics Dreamstation - huge unit-to-unit noise variation

Post by pixelyzed » Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:57 pm

I'm glad to know some Dreamstations are quieter because mine does that whirring/bearing motor noise and it's quite loud making my getting to sleep harder. I never had an issue getting to sleep with or without CPAP (been on CPAP for 10 years). I put the machine on a folded towel. Noise reduced maybe 10% if that. I don't get the wind/leak noise others are describing. I'm on my 3rd Resmed Activa LT nasal mask and I'm very used to that noise which is low and more "natural". The mask noise didn't change when I started with the Dreamstation as it's been set to the same lower and higher presures than my old System One. I actually love the Dreamstation other than the noise, especially with the heated tube which I didn't have with my old System One. That really makes things more comfortable... but that motor noise!

It's actually getting so annoying for me that I went back to my 10 years old System One machine which has always been very quiet.

Both machines have humidifiers and I'm glad they act as mufflers but it's not air noise I'm hearing. It's really a motor noise revving up and down with my breathing. THe Dreamstation feels "softer" and slower to react than my System One. I've used the Dreamstation since January and back to the System One for a couple nights and the feel is quite different. Maybe my Dreamstation is defective. Waiting on my seller to see if they'll be willing to exchange it.

Anyway, wanted to add my two cents...

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Re: Respironics Dreamstation - huge unit-to-unit noise variation

Post by palerider » Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:17 pm

The respironics whine is a thing... I got rid of a System one 60 series 560 machine for that very reason... I could hear the up and down whine, it wasn't loud, but from the other side of the bed, when the AC was off... I could hear it, and it annoyed me... so I traded up to a Resmed... no whine.

Some people can't hear it, either because it's pressure dependent and they may be at a pressure that makes the whine high enough pitched that it's inaudible... or their hearing just isn't so good... *shrug* who's to say.

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