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Another thread going to the dogs. Let's have a few more pictures. They are more fun than arguing.

Linda3032 wrote:Another thread going to the dogs. Let's have a few more pictures.

Would a unicorn picture be helpful?

They are more fun than arguing.

Presenting a "good" argument is helpful. It would require that there be a willingness to limit comments to those that address points that are relevant to the issue being discussed. It would also require a determination to avoid statements that are not logical. Opinions must not be misrepresented as fact. (BTW, so flattered that my continued admonitions are now being presented as a primary concern of another.) Attributions should be backed up with the requested documentation. (See several previous abundantly clear requests that conveniently went unanswered). Quotes should not be made out of context. And finally, it would require that personal attacks (including innuendo and veiled allegations) be directed against the argument, not the poster himself.

Unfortunately, I don't believe this skill set is available to the poster who shall not be named. Or, if it is, the choice has been made to avoid using it. Voila, the beginning of the end, and the degeneration of a potentially educative thread. Now, the choice: to cower and coddle, or to "say it like it is". Unfortunately, there is a significant downside to either strategy.

In any event, the thread may have value, although not it's original intent, in exposing what has been only reluctantly tolerated by many heretofore, if my PM's are any indication. (Empasize "if" . . . )

Absent the above, we degenerate into the poor excuse for a thread that this topic has become. Most unfortunate, as I think some of the issues of aromatherapy and xPAP have gone unaddressed. Unfortunately, the alternative is to "pretend" that the nonsense and the subtle, but deliberately provocative B.S. don't exist, or are said but not meant.

Capitulation to the notion that you can say just about anything and get away with it in the safe shelter of the internet is an ill advised strategy, although it will result in fewer "unpleasant" posts. But, the Truth will set you free!

But for others, truth, evidence and statistically significant data be damned; it is all about the adulation, the condescension and the need to appear right at any cost. NightHawkeye stands out in my mind (an opinion shared by a number of very respected others) for being notorious for posting personal opinion as fact and it is, unfortunately, the newcomers who have the most to lose by believing such nonsense.

He thrives on ambiguity (people who don't know what they're talking about always do) and will resort to taking off into a hundred different directions to avoid having to say, "I see. I was wrong." I have found myself re-asking the same question a number of times in a previous thread in an attempt to throw the spotlight on inaccurate statements. It speaks volumes when that questions continues to go unanswered.

I have some ideas about why his "stuff" has largely gone unchallenged on this board:

1) some feel ill-equipped to deal with the inevitable ensuing battle
2) some have seen the tactics employed by him and they aren't thick-skinned enough to go the distance
3) some fear they will be admonished by onlookers for daring to question a long-time poster
4) some figure it isn't worth their time
5) some aren't smart enough to recognize there's anything amiss in what's been said

I'm sorry that it has come to this, but someone needs to throw a spotlight on NHE's silly bashing tactics. Setting the record straight is needed from time to time.

NightHawkeye probably fools a lot of people when he starts rattling on in a way that could mislead newcomers who are desperately trying to get started on the learning curve of this kind of treatment. The corkscrew twists that NHE throws into that curve often appall me.


The first time that I realized that NHE was such paranoid dolt was while reading through dozens of prior postings, with sweeping generalizations about many things, including machines. But, it is so sad to see it confirmed repeatedly.

NHE, I think it was obvious to most in the previous fight that you picked with me that you came across looking like a sophomoric boob. Perhaps, that's the best we can hope for!

And as for your wish, I can only imagine that you would be very happy if the toxic environment you create is sufficiently foul that I am forced to wonder if posting here as a physician is even worth it. If you were to succeed, you could rightfully reclaim the ill gotten roost from which you have crowed so annoyingly. Your apparent lifelong dream of exacting cruel revenge on the inefficient, lazy, and corrupt medical community (may I quote you) that you so transparently despise will have played out to perfection. You will have driven away an evil interloper, and your minnions will thank you. (And then Bill awakened from his dream . . . )

Like I said previously, Bill, I'm not going to roll over and be your patsy.

Perhaps this will remind you of the deafening silence that met with my previous requests for you to cease and desist (litely edited for brevity):

You sound like you are deliberately misconstruing what I have said.
What is your intention in that? Do you want to be able to say you beat up a doctor? One of those monsters in your past that missed your diagnoses? Look elsewhere, or you'd better come loaded for bear. I have a very low tolerance for people who are deliberately manipulative and deceptive. Even if you were well intentioned, you can't be be so cavalier with your statements that you ruin your credibility. And you have.

Please don't ignore this, Bill:
Please respond with any, and I mean any quotes that substantiate your spurious accusations that I point out above. Failing that, I will have no choice but to conclude they are merely your fabrications.
Time to put up, or shut up, Bill. What's behind that swagger? Shouldn't be hard to answer those three questions if you've got the facts. And if you don't, then just apologize and move on.

Let the record reflect that Bill fabricated his accusations. Enough said.
BTW, readers you can take this to the bank: Bill will again fail to substantiate. Attentively scan his next post of gibberish and pretzel logic and you will see that once again, he will "conveniently" fail to deliver by changing the subject to anything that would distract from the request, including a forceful offensive thrust to divert attention.

Bill, we're all watching:


Now, have you got any cute pooch pix to post?

(note to self: don't feed the trolls, don't feed the trolls . . . )

Welcome Doc, to the real world of forums such as this.
You nail it well.

One problem is that this is ostensibly for meaningful help for those seeking answers to problems encountered in PAP therapy.

For some it is an entertaining chat lounge for compulsive posters who have a need to make gratuitous rejoinders to any posting.

Some come with ideas straight out of National Enquirer and post remedies and anetdotal advice that people may take serious.
They clearly cannot differentiate fact from sophistry.

Then they come with nothing but ad hominens instead of questioning the premise.
But the overall concept works well and there is room for everyone whatever their purpose.
I am considering your admonition to my smoking. I started insulin today and am looking forward to see if that helps. Gotta do something.
Also almost got my 3 docs in a Pi$$ing contest today.
The endocrinologist went ballistic to learn I was on metformin when my Kidney function supposedly contraindicated it with my elevated creatinine levels. Now they are sorting it out and the bad part is that I as a pharmacist failed to know it. I do not think it is al that much of a problem.
tomjax

tomjax wrote: Also almost got my 3 docs in a Pi$$ing contest today.

Did I ever mention those two drunken braggarts who were pissing off a bridge?

tomjax wrote:I vote for anyone interested to try it, I do not smell the cigarette smoke that others complain about. My brain just tunes it out.
I hate every cigarette I light up and wish I would quit them.

Gee Tom I'm surprised! I thought you were a retired Pharmacist? one that still smokes?

Holy cow. I started smoking when I was like 14 or 15, and went until my first stroke at age 45, so I guess I smoked for some 30 years at least a pack a day. That was 5 years ago. To my surprise, what I found as they didn't print it on the label of them Marlboro is:

Nicotine causes your blood vessels to constrict, even the ones in the brain, some are already so tiny a single red blood cell can have difficulty traversing.

As you know constricted blood vessels also increase hypertension. Then when you add up the other adverse effects such as that from carbon monoxide put directly in the blood stream from the lungs and what that does to the endothelial lining. Any high fluid shear stress and you have a endothelial injury and platelet adhesion, increased risk of thrombus and firing off of thrombi and whola stroke.

I didn't realize this until afterward, you also have OSA like me. We spend all night long starving our brain of much needed oxygen, overworking our heart as a result, we get up in the morning what do we do? grab a cup of coffee and have a smoke. Caffeine in the coffee further restricts blood vessels making things even worse. Then off to work we go and smoke and drink more coffee. Get home from work and have a few more smokes until it is bed time and we start over.

So

All night long you deprive your brain of oxygen
All day long you deprive your brain of oxygen. Blood that has carbon monoxide carries less oxygen, after long periods of this the red cells become deformed and smaller, where their ability to carry oxygen is further depleted.

Constant constriction of brain blood vessels leads to a condition called Small Vessel Disease, it can be seen on a high res MRI.

This all leads to what I call thick blood. Keep an eye on arm pains, tingling of the lips (especially the lips), tingling in the legs, those are most likely TIA or stroke symptoms. One thing about it, your body will start some day to let you know most likely with a TIA but a stroke is almost guaranteed within 4-6 weeks after you have your first. There is an 80% chance it will happen before noon (most happen from the time you get up until noon). There is a 20% chance it will be a bleeder, 80% from a clot.

It has been 5 years since I had my last smoke. I think maybe the brain trama helped me kick the habit, but actually I had a few after the first stroke, I then was given Zyban by my personal GP. I said yeah, I have a drawer full of those Nicotine patches, I was standing outside San Diego Convention center with one of those patches on my arm and having a smoke, seen stars I did. But that Zyban stuff worked for me, after 7 days I had to force my self to have a smoke, after 10 days they nearly made me sick.

As you know, Zyban is the marketing name for stop smoking drug which is the identical chemical found in the drug known as WellabutrinSr.

I have to refer you to my personal GP Dr. Lowell Kleinman, he has been my personal doc for over 20 years (he didn't know squat when I first started seeing him). But since then he's gotten pretty good at stopping folks from smoking. His website is:

http://www.drquit.com

He's even written a book for us dummies

Normally I disregard blatant personal attacks but in this case I'll make an exception. My preference is to simply debate the merits of the matter at hand. Those who resort to personal attacks generally do so because they have run out of useful arguments - just like a lawyer banging his fist on the table because he has no other useful arguments left with which to bolster his case.

Resorting to personal attacks also reveals a wealth of personal information about the character of the individual doing the attacking.

drbandage wrote:The sad truth, Nighthawkeye, is that I looked up Troll in the dictionary of internet slang, and they had a full face picture of you.

I'm not a troll, doc. I simply write what I think, what I believe, and what I feel. You may not like it, and I may not like your opinions but that hardly gives you the right to savage me, or anyone else on this message board, even "guests" for that matter. I certainly have not done that to you.

You may not like my opinions about the medical profession, but I come by those opinions honestly. Exactly why they should threaten you so that you resort to personal attacks the way you have is puzzling to me. Heck, I'll even detail for you how I come to have the opinions I do (but it would probably bore most folks here to tears).

drbandage wrote:BTW, readers you can take this to the bank: Bill will again fail to substantiate.

I consider myself an inquisitive person, doc, and am quite willing to learn, even from you. I am also quite willing to apologize when I am in error, or have carelessly offended anyone. Are you? Since you have read through my prior postings I assume you have seen where I have done so. (BTW, I'm again flattered to have merited this attention, but getting attention had little to do with my prior postings. OK, I've enjoyed it a little . . . )

I'm a humble person, doc. I'm quite willing to substantiate, or admit I'm wrong, on any number of opinions I have expressed in this forum. I'll even open it up to all prior postings if you'd like. That should give you plenty of ammunition to shoot at me with, doc. Heck, you might even embarass me so badly that I'll never return to this forum.

drbandage wrote:BTW, readers you can take this to the bank: Bill will again fail to substantiate. Attentively scan his next post of gibberish and pretzel logic and you will see that once again, he will "conveniently" fail to deliver by changing the subject to anything that would distract from the request, including a forceful offensive thrust to divert attention.

Be careful what you ask for, doc. I, too, have presented you with questions and challenges which have gone unanswered.

The biggest problem I had with your challenges previously was that, like a shotgun blast, there were so many of them at once. It was impossible for my (admittedly limited) congnitive ability to process them all at once, much less respond to them in anything like a reasonable time frame. I have to work for a living, raise a family, solve real-world problems, etc.

Here's what I propose to you, doc, since you apparently are willing to entertain dialogue with me again: How about you ask me one simple question, and I'll respond to it. Afterwards, I'll ask you one simple question and await your response. We'll then simply keep this up until we've worked through the backlog of questions or for however long it seems useful. That should keep things focused the way you say you want.

Fair enough?

Regards,
Bill (on his way to bed now, but wondering if he himself can go the distance and also wondering if drbandage can go the distance)

allend wrote:I don't really know what essential oils are. I do know that I despise people who use tons of perfume and cologne, forcing their odors on everyone they glide passed. Their deliberately planned and excessive odors stuffs up my nose and gives me sinus headaches. Ergo, sleeping later on will be problematic.

However, I clean my entire mask, except the straps, the humidifier tank, and the hose every day because it makes me feel good and I like the smell of clean. The smell of fresh baked bread wouldn't be too bad either. It's like getting into bed after your bedding has been washed and pressed.

Many people here have allergy problems and chronic sinusitis and probably hate cologne and perfume too. If you can detour that with essential oils, and via Google I saw some allergies can be treated with essential oils, there might be a great benefit to this.

I cannot stand scented candles. However, a woman once bought me a blue candle from TJ Max called ocean something, that I loved. There is a certain smell that ice cream sugar cones have that I always loved and sometimes you can experience that same ice cream cone smell from a fresh cut lawn...I have no idea why.

Those of us with sleep problems are much more aggravated by unnecessary invasive smells and would probably love to be able to smell things that trigger comfort and relaxation.

Allen

At the risk of re-opening old wounds from the first round on this thread, there were a number of questions posed that I think deserve some response.

(At a minimum I think this whole thread underscores just how connected the sense of smell is to human emotions! Just look at all of the reactions and opinions here)

As for this one, I'd say that very few people regularly experience natural aromatics (as such). Due to the relatively high cost of essential oils, virtually all personal care and fragrance products (perfumes, shampoo, air fresheners, scented candles, deodorant, etc.) are made from artificial fragrance oils manufactured by the petrochemical industry. It makes me sick when I think of smelling things like that in the cpap.

Research on olfaction suggests important differences between natural and artificial aromatics. Orange essential oil smells just like an orange you eat; orange fragrance oil smells, well, like the last orange air freshener you opened or smelled. That said, some people have sensitivities to natural aromatics just like they might to other natural things--so this isn't for everyone.

I'd also like to point out that the individual is in complete control as to how much aromatic to use. Most people find that one or two drops are plenty. The intention is to make the aromatic be a faint, pleasant background smell that will help people relax and calm down. It sure beats the faint plastic smell that my cpap always had before!

Just wondering, as I wait for my pursleep to come....Do you have to replenish it each night, or do the few drops work for some time?

OKAY, CHILDREN, ENOUGH BICKERING! SEPARATE CORNERS FOR YOU! lets stop arguing, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. mine is I absolutely love aromatherapy and since I have started using pur-sleep I have never slept as well. try it you might like it. pat