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RicaLynn wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:03 pm

one does not need to feel hopeless or suicidal to be depressed.

+1

RicaLynn wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:03 pm

esel wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:03 am

What bad sleep sure will do is make you more aggressive, more irritable, bad tempered and mostly against your self. Depression is a state where your arms have dropped. Where you have given up, where hope has vanished which is the last and only one that could have helped you. Any depression will end after some time. Some can be just months others can be years. There is a big difference between Depression caused be the environment in which we live in or if it is genetic, epigenetic.

Depression and sleep apnea can become a vicious cycle but are not actually connected.

Just my opinion not a psy

I'll respectfully disagree with your assessment of depression. As a person who had struggled with chronic depression most of my adult life, I have never felt like "hope has vanished" or that my "arms have dropped." I have felt: fatigued, worthless, without purpose, stupid, irritable, bad-tempered, mostly against myself, and that life was pointless. My brain does not create nor process sufficient dopamine or serotonin, thus I am clinically depressed; one does not need to feel hopeless or suicidal to be depressed. There is not an established *causative* relationship between depression and sleep apnea, but treatment of both should be considered as interrelated for the optimal health of the individual.

Well, just hope this time I will be able to post ... this is the third attempts and each time I could not figure it out where my writing went ...

So please, if it sounds like I am mad, well I am, and it has nothing personal. OK ?

I fully agree with you that there are less severe depression. Some of which may better be termed as burnout as overwhelmed life periods where the mental or physical pression is to much. The point I was hoping to make is that the use of CPAP may or may not have an effect on depression. If one has low or no sleep apnea, CPAP is not going to have any effect on depression.

Sleep is a prerequisit for life. Insomia and fatige will impair a healthy equilibrium. The amount of sleep individuals however need for a healthy life varies enormously. If we could sleep on one half of our brain like some fish do, CPAP would not exist.

IMHO “chronic depression” does not exist. Why did you not have it as a young person. Any depression will end after some time. Some may take longer and that with or without treatment.

Medical treatment of depression is not that easy. It is like changing glaces on a blind person, knowing that it will take a few weeks to months until the patient potentially will see again. Dopamine / serotonin are mostly known for their neurotransmitter function. Impairment in the dopamine pathways can happen at many places and in multiple biochemical pathways. Unfortunately it is not just create and process sufficient dopamine. Impairment can be at the synthesis (production level), degradation level, receptor (multiple proteins associated and often integrated in a membrane to allow signal transfer across that membrane), antagonist (blocking receptors and so the signal). It is involved in the immune system, in the motor control, in reward-motivated behavior, in blood vessels it acts as vasodilator… The synthesis of Dopamine is mostly performed in the brain and the kidney (adrenal gland). The mode of action however is at the cellular level. In Parkinson's disease it is the reduction of synaptic release of dopamine that is the culpide.

Dopamine antagonists (reduce dopamine activity) is used to treat schizophrenia, Restless Legs Syndrome, Attention Deficit Hyperactive Disorder… Surprising maybe is that dopaminergique stimulants are also used to treat ADHD but are addictive. Interesting is that dopamine cannot cross the blood-brain barrier. Oups … So, how the heck all this actually works is quite a mistery, NOT misery ok ?, and that is why it is something for the future. Medicine is hardly a science. You trigger one thing and everything is jumping around except the Dr. watching if the patient can see now.

Many types of pleasure related experiments, such as enjoying food, playing video games, sex, oups , well sex too... increase dopamine release. Now the draw back is that depressive people are NOT enjoying it !

Drugs that increase synaptic dopamine concentration (the dopamine in vesicles at the synaptic end of the nerve ready to be released, just like sperms) are methamphetamine and cocaine and ... Well now it almost makes seance, future is right behind next dore, just one final dore, I know tomorrow I will be fine…

Well if really you are still with me, reading here you either jumped, are simple minded or crazy hoping Dr. Fool has it all under control knowing what he is doing. Except that he may just have missed the last paper that came out tomorrow that will seek light and proof in that dopamine is not involved and actually you do not need any of those glasses.

Hope it made any seance, sorry for some vocabulary and typos.

Chronic depression does indeed exist: See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysthymia


Much more information on chronic depression can be found on the internet and elsewhere.

Lucyhere wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:56 am

Chronic depression does indeed exist: See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysthymia


Much more information on chronic depression can be found on the internet and elsewhere.

Not even gonna dignify that idiot with a response, but thank you Lucyhere.

I did not mean to dignify any one. I am working in a university and I am Bipolar.

Sorry , very sorry if you feel like that ...

Two points:

1. There once was a time when all mental-health professionals were taught that mental-health problems lead to sleep problems; now many are being taught, instead, that sleep problems lead to serious mental-health conditions. In other words, good docs recently educated both in sleep and in mental health are discovering that they always need to screen for sleep problems first, before attempting to treat other conditions involving the brain and mind.

2. Sleep deprivation can be used as a form of torture. (Or, if you are in the, uh, "community," a form of an "enhanced interrogation technique.") It is used to break someone's will. The condition of having one's will broken can mimic, or be, depending on definitions, a form of depression. The problem with that "technique" of "interrogation" is that the users of that brutal "tool" often have a short window of time until the sleep-deprived prisoner begins to detach from logical thought, memory, and reality itself, becoming incapable of providing useful intel as he begins to dream out loud while "awake."

I believe there are powerful lessons on many levels with both of those points when it comes to connections between sleep quality and health of the brain and mind, especially what is often called "mood." When moderate-to-severe sleep apnea is left untreated, it is far from unrelated to mental health problems such as clinical depression. It can be the key aspect or it can be a related aspect--but it is always an aspect one way or another. It is impossible for it not to be, since allowing effective consolidated sleep is what allows healing--physically, emotionally, mentally, and spiritually.

jnk... wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:37 am

Two points:

nicely said

jnk... wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:37 am

When moderate-to-severe sleep apnea is left untreated, it is far from unrelated to mental health problems such as clinical depression. It can be the key aspect or it can be a related aspect--but it is always an aspect one way or another. It is impossible for it not to be, since allowing effective consolidated sleep is what allows healing--physically, emotionally, mentally, and spiritually.

How would a manic phase fit into the picture ?

In a manic phase sleep is so drastically reduced that one can go on for a week or two without sleeping, or be able to sleep in short periods seconds to minutes. This depends on the severity of the bipolar illness. It will then mostly end with a depressive phase. A phase where sleep or insomniac-rest recovery is needed. During a manic phase there is no fear, physical exhaustion goes far over normal limit, thoughts, combining thoughts are at high speed, jumping subjects in a way that people cannot follow or have no clue to why the connections are made and so make no sense, except for the very few directly concerned ones. The speed and the jumping makes it pretty difficult to follow. The no fear makes it that people are shocked or feel insulted by the way and the vocabulary.

To Lucythere, I think I know what chronic means such as chronic pain. I do know what depression feels like. I do know how difficult it can be as a kid to handle a bipolar father (I was 9 when he had his first manic phase). Depression, however is easy, simple or at least the god side of the mental disability. Some times it is difficult to understand the way things work but when my father no longer allowed my mom to sleep (you know he didn't need it, so why would other need it ? ) To him it seemed stupid to think sleep is important or needed, he didn't need it so why others ??? ... The only think was to believe it ... Well I always trusted my father, my mother may just need a little more time and live without sleep is just an other routine. I could not and it was not not having tried... it didn't matter, we were kids, not sleeping is more an adult thing, no worry there. When my father was then sending out letters to lawyers, to Docs, to people in the government that they are simply "idiots" and that things would work if they just could think once. For example, leftover food from the city, better the whole country should be piked up daily and used to feed pigs, chickens etc... We should have kept some of his letters but what ever was caught was destroyed. I know what a psychiatric clinic looks like. I know that powerful medicine can put someone to sleep, those psy are not kidding, even my dad fell a sleep, well actually he fell a sleep only once he was well died up in the ambulance to take him away. I know what a room looks like without a toilet, nothing in it to make noise, nothing really to kil one self actually, with what he got we could not much recognize him nor did he... I have been lucky always very lucky, I have my star watching out for me. I lost my job a couple of time, no wonder I sure cannot blame any one but myself, at my boss's place I would have done the same. NO Trust. Depression actually is a "savior" after a manic phase. Watch a flight over a coucou nest, it is not that bad. Meds, electroshock on the brain are no fiction... still used today A good friend of mine was treated that way, just a few years ago, after signing many, many papers. Well her memory has suffered a lot. Her vocabulary has changed to a more restricted one. She now has no problem to see through people and or not listening all that well. Her depression (she is unipolar depressive) did not change. Her attempts to commit suicides always failed. Actually she may be to stupid or to smart, she only did things that would take to long to let her go before they found her, like cutting up her belly with a lab scalpel, no handle, no deep cuts, just one inch deep. It still took doctors hours to puzzle her back together. ... But this is not the point. Sleep apnea / depression was the point.

If Ricalynn by chance knows which genes are defect, there is hope... big hope for her of springs. If however it is an epigenetic variation good luck. (epigenetic means that the genetic modification has taken place in one or both of her parents before she was conceived and the modification has been carried over).

Calling me an idiot doesn't really prouve you are smart. It is not very respectful either as stated in your first quote. I don't blame you, you are not the only one. It happens all the time. I may well be craysi but when some one ask's me "what is up", or "how are you today", and I am not in depressive phase the answer is always " que du bonheur "

esel wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:00 pm

How would a manic phase fit into the picture ?

Normally I would disqualify a report like the following for bad spelling and grammar. (It is truly bad if it is even worse than mine.) But let's just blame the copy editors for that; its relatively recent release made me give it a passing grade for the purposes of this post:

Salim R Surani, et al., wrote:Patients with OSA have a greater risk of mood disorders, and for most of them the treatment with CPAP or surgery . . . improves cognitive function, sleep quality, and as main consequence, [results in] better quality of life. The outcome of OSA treatment in bipolar disorder is still unclear, because it has been reported that some patients may actually develop a [manic] episode after use of CPAP. -- Ment Health Fam Med (2018) 13: 665-669 (c) 2017 Mental Health and Family Medicine Ltd -- https://www.mhfmjournal.com/open-access ... orders.pdf

My explanation of the findings regarding a manic phase following administration of CPAP is that just as some with bipolar disorder self-treat manic phases by refusing to sleep (lack of sleep has a calming effect in that it dulls the senses), good sleep can temporarily show up as what would be perceived as a manic phase. That is no reason to perpetuate the damage being done by bad sleep. As I have said, good sleep is needed by all humans of all conditions for long-term healing physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. Bad sleep can mask a symptom, yes, (as is seen with some psych meds that mess with sleep architecture) but that is no reason to leave OSA untreated, since there is no condition that, in my opinion, bad sleep truly makes better in the long-term experience.

No, I don't believe all bipolar is directly related to sleep as causation. But doing what can be done to improve sleep to the extent possible is something I believe can be as helpful to someone with bipolar problems as anyone else.

I am not a pro.

Has with mine (nothing scientific but I have been feeling great both mentally and physically since I started 7 months ago).

J-

Chandleresque wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:11 pm

Just looking for success stories or brief responses to whether sleep apnea was a major contributor to anxiety ...
Thank you

Hi Chandleresque,

You ask about anxiety as well, and yes, in my case untreated OSA/SDB definitely contributed to anxiety, and I'm pleased to report that my anxiety levels are down thanks to my OSA being treated every night with CPAP.

Not to say I never have melt downs or crises, but just seem better able to handle things, including anxiety since treating my OSA and getting 7 plus hours per night of restful sleep.

Oh, and my husband is very happy to see the difference in my anxiety levels and my mood as well. I was rather difficult a few years ago, prior to CPAP

If I ever fall asleep without my mask on he is very quick to rectify the situation!

Just to add my 2 cents... as someone that deals with both sleep apnea and depression, I can say that for me the answer to your question "does CPAP therapy help with depression" is a resounding yes. CPAP therapy won't cure depression (if only) or completely eliminate it... but for me, and many I suspect, sleep quality and depression are intertwined. For me, not sleeping well aggravates my depression. And when my depression acts up, I don't sleep well (insomnia). One of the many ways depression is a spiral, or as I say, a self-feeding demon. As such, I do all I can to ensure a good night sleep. And using my CPAP is a core part of that. As is good sleep hygiene. A consistent bedtime, proceeded by a good pre-bedtime ritual and habits, is one of the simplest, yet best, things you can do to improve your sleep quality.

Imagine not dragging through everyday tired, improved mental clarity, improved energy levels, accomplishing your goals and beginning to feel that you might reach your dreams and that you weren't just born unlucky feels.

Esel, your description of how bipolar affects you resonated with me. I've got/had a number of friends who suffer/ed from bipolar and saw the cycles they went through to the point when I could predict when the down cycle was going to begin. I remember watching the manic phase and thinking "when are you going to go to bed?" and the 'depressive phase when sleep seemed to be the only answer.

My depression could probably be described as clinical though I'm not 100% sure of that. The one major bout I had I was offered drugs but chose another path - music. That was in 2005.

In 2013 I had a triple bypass and after that my OSA became very evident. (Not sure why)

I am ashamed of some of the decisions I made in what was a very befuddled state before PAP. I remember the unexplained anger, the feeling that I was being got at (paranoia?) and the generally negative approach to everything. My colleagues noticed it as well and in hindsight I really appreciate their forebearance - it can't have been easy!

Nowadays, if I have a bad night I do feel myself drifting towards those old feelings but have learnt how to overcome that. I thank my PAP therapy for keeping me on a positive path.

Esel what you wrote about bipolar, mania and depression resonated with me as well.

Holden, I too am ashamed of some of my actions in the past. Especially just prior to my diagnosis of OSA, I experienced a lot of anger for no real reason at times, and made several poor judgement calls. I can't blame it all on poor sleep and OSA but really do think that it played a part, definitely.

In my opinion, that depends. I, personally , have been prone to depression for a long time. Before CPAP, I was sleep deprived, and was always aching to go to sleep all day long, and it did amplify my depression. Now, I’m wide awake all day and more cheery, but I still have underlying depression and take meds. My level of anxiety has also decreased significantly as well.