CPAPtalk.com

Pugsy wrote: Some people's nasal mucosa just want more.

Is this true during the day when you are not using CPAP?

upforsleep wrote:Cpap therapy air movement is greater than normal and that's why so many have trouble with bloating and gas

You are confusing air pressure with "air movement".

look at your airflow charts

My flow charts show normal breathing. Nothing increased.

upforsleep wrote:One more short try and then I am outta here.

You don't get to have the last word by being whiny.

ChicagoGranny wrote:Is this true during the day when you are not using CPAP?

Not too much so but when I lived in Las Vegas my nose was constantly dry and unhappy and numerous dry nose nosebleeds. I used a lot of Simply Saline when I lived there....and Las Vegas was pre OSA diagnosis so no cpap.

The addition of the cpap air going over the nasal mucosa will/can dry them out even if it is the same air we breathe in during the day at the same humidity. It's the movement that does the drying.

I know where you are going with the humidity thing of "if it's okay during the day why isn't it okay during the night"
I don't know exactly why except it simply isn't...the air moving even a little I guess dries things out too much.

Just because your nose doesn't seem to mind the change doesn't mean that mine shouldn't mind the change.
And I still use Simply Saline during the day...once or twice and always right before bedtime.

I once set the humidifier to 1..this was the old M series...horrible, horrible nasal symptoms....and in early June 2009 where the ambient air wasn't particularly dry (like from a furnace). I don't ever want to go through that again...and no it wasn't seasonal allergies..it was cpap humidity or lack of. I never get seasonal allergy symptoms...the only time get any nasal issues is if the machine isn't or can't cranking out the moisture and getting it to work again fixes things straight away.

Pugsy wrote:It's the movement that does the drying.

It's not moving any faster with CPAP than without CPAP. The pressure is higher, but the movement is the same.

The exception would be using a nasal interface and leaking out the lips.

ChicagoGranny wrote:It's not moving any faster with CPAP than without CPAP. The pressure is higher, but the movement is the same.

The exception would be using a nasal interface and leaking out the lips.

Figured you come back with that...maybe it isn't faster...maybe there is just more of it. Hell, I don't know...all I know is what my nose tells me makes it happy and when my nose is happy I breathe good and that makes me happy.

And no...mouth breathing/leaking causing more air flow was ruled out long ago when I taped my mouth.

You are just going to have to believe me when I say that what works for you doesn't work for me or everyone else on the planet for whatever reasons might be going on. Trust me...I know my body and I got enough medical background to understand what is going on.

If added humidity wasn't important...we wouldn't have humidifiers routinely prescribed and we wouldn't have cpap rhinitis commonly discussed in the medical community.
We would just look at a chart and "you live in an area where humidity is normally so and so and you don't need more so you don't get a humidifier".

Some interesting reading on why cpaps dry out the nasal mucosa even with the same humidity in that air as we are breathing all day long.

http://www.sleepreviewmag.com/2004/05/w ... with-cpap/

http://journal.publications.chestnet.or ... 30/403.pdf

I repeat...if cpap wasn't doing something different to the nasal mucosa with that incoming air at whatever the ambient humidity might be ...then no one would ever need a humidifier because we all are breathing whatever air during the day.

Pugsy wrote:if cpap wasn't doing something different to the nasal mucosa

Well, that is different than saying,

Pugsy wrote:It's the movement that does the drying.

ChicagoGranny wrote:Well, that is different than saying,

Well...the only thing the air is doing is moving and last I heard moving takes movement of some sort.
If you wave a fan over a wet spot on your arm it's going to dry quicker with the fan than without.
The faster you wave the fan the faster the wet spot will dry.

Look at it as you wish. I have a headache now and know when to quit banging my head against the proverbial wall. Have a good day.

Pugsy wrote:the only thing the air is doing is moving

It's also creating a pressure. But, it is moving no faster than the human diaphragm will allow - the same as when CPAP is not being used.

Pugsy wrote:Some interesting reading on why cpaps dry out the nasal mucosa even with the same humidity in that air as we are breathing all day long.

http://journal.publications.chestnet.or ... 30/403.pdf

That study actually found,

Upper airway symptoms are caused by mouth leaks that produce high unidirectional airflow over nasal
and oral mucosa.

So the higher "air movement" is caused by mouth leaks while using nasal interfaces. (Only nasal interfaces were studied.) This is to be expected.

The study presents no evidence that upper airway symptoms (drying, irritation, swelling) are caused by CPAP except when there are mouth leaks with nasal interfaces.

Two patients who chose heated over cold passover humidity actually preferred using CPAP without humidity.

Gramps and me!

Pugsy, When you say you get airway dryness without humidifier, I believe you. I just don't know why this occurs.

ChicagoGranny wrote: Pugsy, When you say you get airway dryness without humidifier, I believe you. I just don't know why this occurs.

I don't know the actual mechanics of "why" I am like I am and you are like you are.

What I do know is that we are all individuals and all have various little things about our bodies that is different from the next person..
Like the husband and wife sleeping in the same bed with same machine and he is like you and she is like me...it happens all the time.
That big old YMMV sticker.

I don't think it matters exactly "why"...I think all that matters is that the person do whatever they think they do to make their body happy and there is no right way or wrong way...there's whatever it takes for the individual.

You guys who don't use extra moisture...you all sort of talk to us (who like the moisture or need it) like we are the ones doing something wrong or being unusual. That using extra moisture means we are doing something wrong or something is wrong with us and that simply is not the case.

Adding cpap air to room air does dry out the nasal mucosa in some people and the result is the nasal symptoms we all hate to experience...and it can't always be blamed on mouth leaking/breathing air flow increases. Full face mask users often have to use the higher humidity settings too.
There's more people doing it my way than your way. I don't talk to you all like you are the oddballs.
I don't question your preferences or why you feel the way you do about anything you do.
Yet those of us who like or want or need more moisture get grilled like we are the oddballs.

Why can't you (plural meaning the group who advocates no humidifier because you all don't feel the need) simply just say that humidity needs and preferences come with the usual YMMV sticker and this is one area where people have to figure out what their own body needs or wants.

I always try to mention that some people like more and some people like less...I don't assume they need more like I do. I will try to determine what they are using first if at all possible though.

BUT this is how I feel when you talk to me the way you have talked to me about this...I feel like you think there is something wrong with me or what I am doing. That's how I feel...you may not intend to make me feel that way but that's what I end up feeling.
I don't like that feeling whether you meant me to feel that way or not.

Pugsy wrote:I don't think it matters exactly "why"

"Why" person here. All my life; will never get over it.

Pugsy wrote:There's more people doing it my way than your way.

The silent majority has spoken!

ChicagoGranny wrote: "Why" person here. All my life; will never get over it.

Okay.. I will accept that.
I have some whys that I haven't been able to find an answer to.
A bit frustrating sometimes but I try not to expend brain cells on things where there's not much chance of me figuring out "why".
My brain cells are limited. I need to save them for really important stuff.

upforsleep wrote:palerider,
well, then tell me what is going on when you hold your nose and blow? Why do swimmers and high altitude climbers, passengers, even bother?

something completely unrelated, except in your little delusional universe.

upforsleep wrote:I totally regret my replies to this thread because no one seems to "get it"
One more short try and then I am outta here.

I has to do with the Eustachinan tubes in the middle ear. They are to equalize pressure on the eardrum(inner and outer ears)and also to drain moisture. They can become blocked by allergens and most of us use nasal spray or neti- pot to clear the tubes to the back of the throat (you can taste it when it's clear). Have you ever heard the term "nasal drip"?

you clearly have no idea how any of this works, much less human nasal/oral anatomy.

Eustachian tubes connect the *EARS* to the back of the nasal cavity, neti pots and nasal sprays do not affect them.

try learning something before embarrassing yourself with more garbage posts.

upforsleep wrote:I going to stop here,

yes, that would be best.

palerider wrote:

upforsleep wrote:palerider,
well, then tell me what is going on when you hold your nose and blow? Why do swimmers and high altitude climbers, passengers, even bother?

something completely unrelated, except in your little delusional universe.

He doesn't understand the difference between flow and pressure.