Respiratory Rate wrong while abnormal breathing?

The only way to know would be to graph the raw data off the card, if it even exists on non bilevel machines.

palerider wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:43 pm

The only way to know would be to graph the raw data off the card, if it even exists on non bilevel machines.

Right, I think that could be a possibility and why it's not presented by ResScan for non bilevels.

But I think the real point should be, as I think you said earlier, that this type of information meant for bilevels and ventilators, RR, I:E, etc,. should not be presented for those machines for which it has no meaning, ie., non bilevels. It just causes worry and confusion.

palerider wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:43 pm

The only way to know would be to graph the raw data off the card, if it even exists on non bilevel machines.

Resp Rate was directly on my card. (Resmed AirSense 10 Autoset) I grabbed EDFbrowser, copied the data off the card, and took a look. The PLD file had the good bits like Resp Rate. (And the flow is from the BRP file.)
(Also, this program is not that user friendly at all, I wouldn't recommend it unless you had no other choice. SleepyHead is great. This took quite a while to get positioned and sized reasonably well.)

This is a screenshot of where you can see the RR being wonky, but if you count the lower end of each period on the flow rate, you'd still come out with 19-20 breaths per minute. (The graph is horizontally one minute in the screenshot below.)

Good to know.

If this "double breathing" is really Ballistocardiographic artifacts why does my Resmed S9 autoset report them as flow limitations and then increase the pressure

you need more pressure. I would try min 11, max 20 and review

edam wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:43 am

If this "double breathing" is really Ballistocardiographic artifacts why does my Resmed S9 autoset report them as flow limitations and then increase the pressure

Because Flow Limitations are part of what the auto adjusting algorithm will try to fight with more pressure and they aren't the same thing as the cardiac echos and if you are seeing both at the same time it's just a coincidence.. Resmed isn't reporting the cardiac echoes as FLs.

Pugsy wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:39 am

edam wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:43 am

If this "double breathing" is really Ballistocardiographic artifacts why does my Resmed S9 autoset report them as flow limitations and then increase the pressure

Because Flow Limitations are part of what the auto adjusting algorithm will try to fight with more pressure and they aren't the same thing as the cardiac echos and if you are seeing both at the same time it's just a coincidence.. Resmed isn't reporting the cardiac echoes as FLs.

Is there any consensus about lower flow limitations causing better quality sleep / feeling more rested? (Or maybe even a study about that?) It feels like sleep apnea hasn't really been "cured" until you can do some kind of multi-variant analysis with FL, RR, AHI, hours of sleep, sleep time consistency, and then magically get a quantitative way of saying how good a night's sleep was. (EEG over the next few hours/days? HRV? RHR? VO2max?) I'd hope someone has already done this legwork in a study so I can just reap the rewards.

linagee wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:33 am

Pugsy wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:39 am

edam wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:43 am

If this "double breathing" is really Ballistocardiographic artifacts why does my Resmed S9 autoset report them as flow limitations and then increase the pressure

Because Flow Limitations are part of what the auto adjusting algorithm will try to fight with more pressure and they aren't the same thing as the cardiac echos and if you are seeing both at the same time it's just a coincidence.. Resmed isn't reporting the cardiac echoes as FLs.

Is there any consensus about lower flow limitations causing better quality sleep / feeling more rested? (Or maybe even a study about that?) It feels like sleep apnea hasn't really been "cured" until you can do some kind of multi-variant analysis with FL, RR, AHI, hours of sleep, sleep time consistency, and then magically get a quantitative way of saying how good a night's sleep was. (EEG over the next few hours/days? HRV? RHR? VO2max?) I'd hope someone has already done this legwork in a study so I can just reap the rewards.

I don't know the answer. There might be documentation but I have never looked for it because I just haven't had the need.
I rarely have flow limitations of any consequence so I have no personal experience to draw from or give me impetus to go digging through research papers. Maybe someone else has.

I do know that one has to eliminate FLs from nasal congestion first....the machine doesn't know the difference between a reduction in air flow with swollen nasal mucosa and the usual airway issues. More pressure won't necessarily fix swollen nasal mucosa causing FLs...and might help with airway issues below the nasal cavity in the area we typically think of SDB issues.

Flow limitations can disrupt sleep but they don't always disrupt sleep in everyone. IMHO....just another one of the cpap/sleep apnea things that come with that big YMMV sticker.

Personally I simply rely on my body's interpretation of how I feel I slept....I don't need numbers or graphs to tell me that.
I learned a long time ago that the prettiest reports and graphs in the world doesn't mean squat in terms of how I slept or might feel.
Just too many other variables in the mix. The data we get from these machines was never supposed to be meant to be put under the microscope like we do...it's for trends and patterns mainly.
You can get an AHI of 0.0 and absolutely no FLs and still feel like crap....been there and done that and learned my lesson.

linagee wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:33 am

It feels like sleep apnea hasn't really been "cured" until you can do some kind of multi-variant analysis with FL, RR, AHI, hours of sleep, sleep time consistency, and then magically get a quantitative way of saying how good a night's sleep was.

I think the measure of a good night's sleep is basically subjective rather than quantitively objective. How do you feel? Are you rested? IMO, once AHI is brought to a level somewhere around 1.0 or less, and one is not rested or continues to feel fatigued, then I think there is a need to look elsewhere. That elsewhere broadly consists of Sleep Hygiene which covers a myriad of things including some you mentioned like hours of sleep and consistency. I've seen a number of people on this forum looking for a magic bullet within the data provided by their machine, but sometimes it's obvious some of them are suffering from depression, poor sleep habits, etc. and no amount of analyzing, tweaking or fiddling with data will make them feel better.

The above might be a little simplistic, but cpap can fix poor sleep resulting from SDB, but it can't fix poor sleep resulting from other causes.

linagee wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:33 am

Pugsy wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:39 am

edam wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:43 am

If this "double breathing" is really Ballistocardiographic artifacts why does my Resmed S9 autoset report them as flow limitations and then increase the pressure

Because Flow Limitations are part of what the auto adjusting algorithm will try to fight with more pressure and they aren't the same thing as the cardiac echos and if you are seeing both at the same time it's just a coincidence.. Resmed isn't reporting the cardiac echoes as FLs.

Is there any consensus about lower flow limitations causing better quality sleep / feeling more rested? (Or maybe even a study about that?) It feels like sleep apnea hasn't really been "cured" until you can do some kind of multi-variant analysis with FL, RR, AHI, hours of sleep, sleep time consistency, and then magically get a quantitative way of saying how good a night's sleep was. (EEG over the next few hours/days? HRV? RHR? VO2max?) I'd hope someone has already done this legwork in a study so I can just reap the rewards.

I don't know about consensus... but it is a fact that flow limitations do disturb sleep, and cause you to work harder to get air, thus reducing the effectiveness of that sleep. There are also studies that show that snoring, in and of itself is harmful to your health.

I'm also getting very high respiratory rates every night, often going well above 40. Screenshots below.

Anyone think that these resp. rates are for sure false readings, or possibly an indication of some kind of respiratory health issue?

CBA.