Philips corporate ploy

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jeresoph
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Philips corporate ploy

Post by jeresoph » Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:28 pm

Hi all:
I’m assuming a lot of you had a machine that was part of the Philips recall announced in April of this year. Now they are telling us that they are moving to fix our machines and that the whole process might take up to a year. What pisses me off is that most of us cannot wait any length of time, let alone a year, to get a replacement and frankly the idea of a replacement machine from the folks that gave you a carcinogenic machine doesn’t fill me with glee and happiness! They really should pay us for the inevitable and immediate replacement that we have had to make to carry on with our regimen. But oh no. You’ll get a replacement within a year and that’s the deal. I do not need a 2nd machine. If they are not going to pay us fair value for the cost of their dangerous machine then they should give us a voucher which we can use to purchase supplies we might actually want, such as a travel CPAP or any number of supplies. That at least would be practical and not entirely insulting. What do folks think about Philips offer and their efforts to railroad us poor little folks who are merely their customers. In my view their whole approach is a textbook study in how to never again build a healthy commercial relationship with their consumers.

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ChicagoGranny
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Re: Philips corporate ploy

Post by ChicagoGranny » Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:45 pm

jeresoph wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:28 pm
What do folks think
I think it is overblown.

UK National Patient Safety Alert

There have been a small number of reports outside the UK of this causing minor, short-term effects such as: irritation to the skin, eye, and respiratory tract; an inflammatory response; headaches; asthma.
...
Release of volatile organic compounds (VOC) including Dimethyl diazene and Phenol. Evidence suggests these gases dissipate after 24 hours from first ‘out of box’ use.

https://www.gov.uk/drug-device-alerts/n ... slash-mhra
jeresoph wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:28 pm
In my view their whole approach is a textbook study in how to never again build a healthy commercial relationship with their consumers.
The general consensus is their CPAP machines have ALWAYS been inferior.

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chunkyfrog
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Re: Philips corporate ploy

Post by chunkyfrog » Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:47 pm

ChicagoGranny wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:45 pm
. . .
The general consensus is their CPAP machines have ALWAYS been inferior.
RIGHT ON THE NOSE!

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Scott_G
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Re: Philips corporate ploy

Post by Scott_G » Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:36 pm

I want to formally thank Philips for putting carcinogens in my old machine, leading to the recall.

It prompted me to replace the old machine with a Resmed AS11. My AHI is lower now, the machine is quieter, and (unlike new PR machines) I still have access to my data.

So.... Thanks for screwing up, Philips!

(On a more serious note... No signs of degradation on my old PR 60 series foam, and it did a decent job for 9 years. I didn't stop using it when the recall happened, as it showed no (visible) signs of a problem. If PR hadn't reduced the build quality so much on the DS2, and encrypted the data, I would not have insisted on a Resmed for replacement. The Resmed algorithm does seem to be working better for me, and the build quality on the AS11 is better than the DS2 from what I can tell.)

D.H.
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Re: Philips corporate ploy

Post by D.H. » Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:27 pm

Since I have an old F&P machine from 2005, I was fortunate to be able to stop using my DreamStation1 as soon as I heard of the recall.

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chunkyfrog
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Re: Philips corporate ploy

Post by chunkyfrog » Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:38 pm

I really need to stop patting myself on the back for never getting a Respironics machine.
It is beginning to make me feel a tiny bit dirty.
Instead of washing my hands, I will just use another squirt of sanitizer.
:mrgreen:

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jas32
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Re: Philips corporate ploy

Post by jas32 » Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:41 pm

Scott_G wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:36 pm

..... prompted me to replace the old machine with a Resmed AS11. My AHI is lower now, the machine is quieter, and (unlike new PR machines)......
Curious about this comment. How much did your AHI drop when you started using the AS11?

I saw a similar result when I recently started using a ResMed S9 (previous unit was a recalled DS1). My last 30 day AHI average with the Dreamstation was 5.4. My most recent 30 day AHI average was 1.8 with the ResMed. Makes me wonder if AHI results are actually directly comparable.

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Scott_G
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Re: Philips corporate ploy

Post by Scott_G » Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:15 pm

jas32 wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:41 pm
Scott_G wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:36 pm

..... prompted me to replace the old machine with a Resmed AS11. My AHI is lower now, the machine is quieter, and (unlike new PR machines)......
Curious about this comment. How much did your AHI drop when you started using the AS11?
Nothing dramatic. The PR did a good job, I was averaging 1.6. I’ve been at 0.6 with the AS11. But you’re correct, it is hard to know if the two machines detect/count the same way, so some of the difference could be that as opposed to actual improvement in therapy. No way to tell.

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chunkyfrog
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Re: Philips corporate ploy

Post by chunkyfrog » Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:16 am

Knowing what we know about both companies, it could be little more than
second rate engineering in the respironics--meaning both treatment and reporting.

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ChicagoGranny
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Re: Philips corporate ploy

Post by ChicagoGranny » Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:23 am

jas32 wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:41 pm
Makes me wonder if AHI results are actually directly comparable.
The two brands' proprietary algorithms are different. They respond differently to changes in airway flow.

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Re: Philips corporate ploy

Post by Janknitz » Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:48 pm

The PR machines were always poorly designed. The humidifiers stopped working in the PRS1's because of a defect in the main components-a known manufacturers defect, and they did NOTHING to make people whole when that issue was widespread. They knew about it and took NO responsibility for it. There should have been a recall then.

And they had some really stupid design decisions. Like a beep when the PRS1 turned on--hello, this is something used for sleep and some of us don't sleep alone! And the humidifier light that stayed on to tell you what the setting was even when the humidifier no longer operated. :roll: And no cover on the filter meant it popped out if you coughed. I hope the designers have to use it every night in hell. :lol:
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jas32
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Re: Philips corporate ploy

Post by jas32 » Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:50 am

Didn’t realize there’s quite a bit of “dislike” on PR. I’ve been on CPAP for 8 years with 2 PR machines (until recently) but never had any problems at all.

I’m just really curious about the significant difference in AHI numbers (at least for me). Wondering how you can measure improvement specially if you’re newly diagnosed. Obviously your baseline will depend on what machine you used in your sleep study.

Still curious if this (lower AHI with ResMed) is considered normal or expected ? I’m sure, like me there are numerous people out there who recently switched, either permanently or temporarily from PR to ResMed because of the recall.

BTW even with the better AHI numbers with ResMed, I didn’t feel any noticeable difference in sleep quality.

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Pugsy
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Re: Philips corporate ploy

Post by Pugsy » Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:29 am

jas32 wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:50 am
BTW even with the better AHI numbers with ResMed, I didn’t feel any noticeable difference in sleep quality.
There is so much more to good sleep quality than just getting nice low AHI numbers.
Common complaint though....time to do more detective work as to why sleep seems to be not doing a good job resolving unwanted symptoms.
Getting good numbers is the easy part....feeling them is a whole different story.
Lots of causes for "bad sleep" and cpap can only fix "bad sleep" that is related to airway issues.
CPAP doesn't do a darn thing for all those other causes of bad sleep no matter how much we want to blame all our sleep problems on airway issues.

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ChicagoGranny
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Re: Philips corporate ploy

Post by ChicagoGranny » Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:26 pm

jas32 wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:50 am
Obviously your baseline will depend on what machine you used in your sleep study.
A one-night titration study is a poor baseline. The technician starts you at a low pressure and watches for events to develop. He gradually raises the pressure. This may have to be done several times before he reaches an effective pressure. In the meantime, you may have had a good many events.

Additionally, we sleep and breathe differently every night. A patient may sleep very differently in a sleep lab as compared to in his own bed.

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Re: Philips corporate ploy

Post by jas32 » Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:05 pm

Pugsy wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:29 am
....There is so much more to good sleep quality than just getting nice low AHI numbers.....
Totally understand low AHI alone doesn't mean good sleep, it is certainly much more complicated than that. However, to most people AHI is the primary metric that is used, in fact it is usually the basis for getting a CPAP Rx. Even OSCAR shows it in big bold numbers. I'm just wondering why there is a fairly significant difference (ResMed seem to be lower in most cases) in AHI results between PR and ResMed and there seem to be not much concern about the difference.

Just trying to understand the situation. Is ResMed that much better in providing therapy? Are they computing their AHI differently? Or it's one of those things not worth fuzzing about?

To ChicagoGranny, yes I also understand the 1 night titration is definitely not a good baseline considering the artificial environment, I guess that's why good sleep centers monitor your usage remotely and make adjustments accordingly. But still most people if not all, start there.

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