What data does my HC234 Keep?

justplainbill · Post by **justplainbill** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:13 pm

I'm a newbie (midway into my 4th week) CPAP user. I'm getting to set to see my sleep specialist next week (for the first time).
I am using an F & P HC234 CPAP machine. I was wondering what data this machine records. Does anyone here know?

Thanks for your replies,
Bill

GoofyUT · Post by **GoofyUT** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:20 pm

Alas, Fisher and Paykel machines currently only report compliance data:

Total hours, nights used, average hours/night.

Sorry.

Chuck

justplainbill · Post by **justplainbill** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:33 pm

Chuck,
Thanks for your reply.
I had kind of hoped for more but at least I'll know not to expect my doctor or DME to be able to know more than this just on the machine's say-so.

Bill

TheWife · Post by **TheWife** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 12:03 am

GoofyUT wrote:Alas, Fisher and Paykel machines currently only report compliance data:

Total hours, nights used, average hours/night.

That's such a drag. Aren't they the ONLY ones that have a built-in heated hose? Do they make an AutoPAP machine?

I feel like we're living in the dark ages. Five years from now, it will be standard for all machines to have built-in humidifiers, heated hoses, and an AutoPAP feature, and more! Then there's interfaces...

Theresa

dsm · Post by **dsm** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 5:39 am

Hi,

I once worked in NZ for a subsidiary of F&P & I personally know Gary Paykel (I think he is still running the company).

F&P always held the reputation for quality and innovation in the regional market but whilst their HC100 & HC150 heated humidifiers are still leading the pack and their heated hose is without doubt a great innovation, they unfortunately missed the boat on the matter of recording AHI, HI & AI data and making that available when it comes to xpap, they were also too slow to market with an AUTO & Bilevel. (Perhaps fatally as far as xpap is concerned).

The current leader in the pack for recording really useful data (despite what popular opinion here may appear to paint) is Resmed. Resmed without doubt gather the best data of any xpap machine - the VPAP III gathers useful and IMHO *reliable* data. Respironics also do a great job but their software is so complex and so convoluted that everyone (who is honest) admits it takes enormous effort to get it working plus it took a fellow New Zealander's software to make sense of it - (Respironics data - Derek's My Encore - Derek & I are New Zealanders - F&P are a New Zealand company).

#removed pre-emptive responses remark

Sadly I would love to support and promote F&P products as I really enjoyed working with and for them but reality can't hide their lack of innovation no matter how much I like & admire Gary Paykel (who did me many personal favours).

Such is life.

DSM

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CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): respironics, resmed, hose, AHI, auto

justplainbill · Post by **justplainbill** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 8:53 am

Aren't they the ONLY ones that have a built-in heated hose? Do they make an AutoPAP machine?

For what it's worth, my model does not have a heated hose but there is some built-in feature for auto-adjusting the humidity and I believe you are right that F & P has the only heated hose.

I think you are right that in the future we are likely to see greater data recording as standard and, judging from the forums I have been reading, perhaps autopap will become standard as well. But this assumes that an educated set of users consistently advocates for more than the bare-bones minimum in CPAP care and an educated set of doctors to support us (and vice versa, I suppose) against cost-conscious insurers.

I do like my machine very much despite it's limitations. I will be talking with my sleep doc on the issue when I see him next week. Things are going very nicely overall but I am still susceptible to the occasional sensation that I am breathing in exhaled air at times (I have mild/moderate apnea and my pressure setting is 5 based on a full titration study).

Thanks for your input/feedback/recommendatins.

Best wishes,
Bill

TheWife · Post by **TheWife** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:45 am

dsm wrote:F&P always held the reputation for quality and innovation in the regional market but whilst their HC100 & HC150 heated humidifiers are still leading the pack and their heated hose is without doubt a great innovation, they unfortunately missed the boat on the matter of recording AHI, HI & AI data and making that available when it comes to xpap, they were also too slow to market with an AUTO & Bilevel. (Perhaps fatally as far as xpap is concerned).

So have they packed up their R&D department and aren't moving forward? It's interesting that a lot of innovation seems to be coming from down under (the Aussie heated hose being another one). We'll have to purchase our machine soon, so it wil be too late for us, but surely SOMEONE could be convinced to put all the features informed users want into one machine? Surely??? Any takers?

Theresa

rested gal · Post by **rested gal** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 1:49 pm

dsm wrote:The current leader in the pack for recording really useful data (despite what popular opinion here may appear to paint) is Resmed.

That's a matter of .... "opinion."

dsm wrote:Respironics also do a great job but their software is so complex and so convoluted that everyone (who is honest) admits it takes enormous effort to get it working

Again...a matter of "opinion." In my honest opinion, Respironics' Encore Pro software is not at all complex nor convoluted. Nor does it take any particular effort to install and use in most cases. It's probably the easiest to use of all three major cpap manufacturers' respective software packages. In my honest opinion.

dsm wrote:plus it took a fellow New Zealander's software to make sense of it - (Respironics data - Derek's My Encore - Derek & I are New Zealanders - F&P are a New Zealand company).

Well, not to take anything away from Derek's hard work and wonderful free contribution of his supplemental "MyEncore" add-on program....quite a few people do like using "MyEncore" along with Encore Pro...but I use just Encore Pro. I have no problem at all "making sense" of my overnight data when I look at Encore Pro's very straight forward charts and graphs. The Encore Pro data graphs are much easier to make sense of (in my honest opinion) than the way ResMed's Autoscan presents its graphs.

dsm wrote:I have no doubt that this post will attract the usual anon & guest attacks and perhaps criticism from some regulars with vested interests, but I claim that I state facts and have the guts to stand behind them. Even against the obnoxious 'anons' & any attacking 'guests'.

Regulars with vested interests? I don't think differences of opinion mean a person's opinion is being "attacked", whether it's a regular or a guest who expresses a different opinion.

I've used quite a few different types of machines from all three major manufacturers...with their software. I don't claim to be stating "facts" when I'm simply giving my own opinion about which software gives me the info I need, in the most understandable (to me) form.

I have no agenda, no vested interest in any manufacturer's machines or software, and no reason to be anything other than honest in stating which machines and software I prefer.

Haven't tried an F&P machine, since they don't make an autopap, nor do they have software that can give any detailed data other than "compliance." I do like their heated humidifier -- I've enjoyed using the F&P HC 150 humidifier with several other brands of xpap machines.

Actually, there are various features that EACH manufacturer has put into their machines and software that I like more than another's. I'd like to be able to choose what I like best from each one and discard what I don't like about each. Until that machine turns up, the Respironics machines and Encore Pro software are my choice.

Personal choice, personal opinion. No vested interest. I don't even own any cpap manufacturers' stock. Wish I did!!!

GoofyUT · Post by **GoofyUT** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:21 pm

Of the three brands I've tried (F&P HC608, ResMed S8 AutoSet Vantage and Respironics REMstar Auto), the F&P was by far the quietest, most user friendly and sturdiest, in my opinion. I also admired their chip-controlled, well-integrated humidifer, thoguh I found the heated hose made the air uncomfortably stuffy and I was unable to correct that by adjusting either the climate or the comfort controls. Though I have heard that there has been a firmware upgrade to address this issue, I nonetheless switched out of F&P to a ResMed S8 Vantage because the stuffiness of the air when the heated hose cycled on interupted my sleep.

Howver, given the overall excellence of the F&P HC608, it is indeed lamentable that F&P has not followed the industry in including data capabilities and auto-titration. If they were to introduce a data-capable auto-titrating machine with a good algoritm (for me), I'd be the FIRST in line to pick one up.

Incidentally, while solid, stylish and well designed, the F&P HC608 is NOT travel friendly. But it makes a great home appliance (absent the limitations I've mentioned above). But, what else would you expect from a company that seems to be devoting itself to developing, marketing and exporting refrigerators for toney, upscale kitchens?

Just my opinion.

Chuck

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GoofyUT · Post by **GoofyUT** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:34 pm

BTW, having used both ResMed's AutoScan v5.7 and Respironic's EncorePro v1.577/MyEncore, I agree with EVERYTHING that RG stated above (as usual). And, I have NO vested interest. I'm a state government slug.

Chcuk

dsm · Post by **dsm** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 5:27 pm

Chuck, Rested Gal,

Yes I was being reactive in advance. I do dread times when I am sure a comment will be pounced on by anons/guests. I was getting ahead of myself.

It is my 'opinion' re the software

I also respectfully agree that there will be differing opinions on just how easy EncorePro is to install set up, use & manage. I have installed it many times & dread each go at it and I am a software professional. Autoscan is very easy to install and the data exported from it is very easy to further
manipulate with additional software (unlike EncorePro).

I will soon be trialling a Bipap AUTO as despite what I regard as the very useful data from VPAP IIIs, my wife won't sleep in the same room with them. So have obtained a Bipap AUTO to use for detailed data gathering as I believe they are as quiet as the Remstar AUTO which is very quiet.

As for F&P, the reps who sell their healthcare products have here (in Sydney), developed a bit of a reputation for not listening to feedback from sleep clinic professionals. To me this is sad as it is a great company.

Cheers

DSM

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Bob... · Post by **Bob...** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 5:43 pm

I didn't have any problem with EncorePro when I was using a REMstar, however there are four threads on just the first "Topic" page right now with questions/problems. Does that tell anyone anything?

Bob

Goofproof · Post by **Goofproof** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:44 pm

Bob... wrote:I didn't have any problem with EncorePro when I was using a REMstar, however there are four threads on just the first "Topic" page right now with questions/problems. Does that tell anyone anything?

Bob

It tells me people don't read the everyday threads, and can't master the search function, and I to have trouble finding things with it, but I am getting better. The encore Pro software design is immature, it could be refined to install with one click,with the reader drivers included, after all Bill Gates didn't write it. Options like DO NOT ERASE, could have been included in preferences, instead of being a after thought.

I think it partly due to the Medical Indrusty's, non-leading edge thing, half of the programs used in hospitals are still DOS.

Like Rested Girl said, Encore pro software does a fine job of showing the info we need, I don't find it hard to use or understand in the least. I do like MyEncore, for it's way of putting most of the data on one screen, and it's readout of time spent in Apnea, and length of Apnea, easyier to see than Encore Pro. I do respect DSM for his knowledge and help to the fourm, but when it comes to The Software War, I'll disagree! Jim

dsm · Post by **dsm** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:02 pm

Goofproof wrote:
<snip>
Like Rested Girl said, Encore pro software does a fine job of showing the info we need, I don't find it hard to use or understand in the least. I do like MyEncore, for it's way of putting most of the data on one screen, and it's readout of time spent in Apnea, and length of Apnea, easyier to see than Encore Pro. I do respect DSM for his knowledge and help to the fourm, but when it comes to The Software War, I'll disagree! Jim

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CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): Encore Pro

Jim,

Yup fair comment.

Re EncorePro, the reason Derek wrote his version was to make the software easier to use. Derek did a great job - I think we all agree on that (I certainly never said otherwise in regard to MyEncore ).

Where Encore Pro falls down 'in my opinion' ...

- very complex installation. We *repeatedly* see people stumbling on the complexity of this install & crying out for help. I myself find it difficult & I do it for a living and am used to solving install problems. As someone else has already pointed out - look at all the threads on the 1st page of this messageboard related to problems with EncorePro - that does tell us something. I just can't see eye-to-eye with RG's opinion that EncorePro is not problematic for a lot of people. It is many thanks to RGs efforts that so many get as far as they have with it despite itself.

- The way the data is stored in SQL server adds to the complexity of trying to install both Encore Pro and MyEncore. This approach is probably a moot point but it has added complexity when perhaps it wasn't needed.

- The data gathered is generally ok but it is 'my opinion' that the snore data is meaningless and the HI data is relative (relative to Respironics machines only). We have had many 'debates' in the past re why 2 different brands of machine do & will report conflicting AI & HI numbers - usual response is its in the algorithms but that very point raises a lot of issues about lack of standards & commonality & which brand of machine provides the more reliable data. I have formed my own opinion on this (as I sure people can tell ).

- EncorePro is not in any way intuitive. I rate it as having a poor human interface design - the software being for clinics & doctors makes no difference whatsoever to good & intuitive GUI design.
I am not claiming that AutoScan is any great prize winner. It is simplistic but far easier to come back to & use after a spell. Its gui design is at best 'fair' but a lot easier to follow than EncorePro.

- I believe the only reason so many people successfully use Encore Pro at all is because of the fantastic help provided here but there were periods when even that was so confusing due to the complexities of using the different card readers, that one could spend hours sifting through the issues.

- It is easier to 'export' useful data & reprocess it from AutoScan vs Encore Pro.

Basically I would love to write a new software program designed with input from people here as to what data is most useful & how it can be presented best & structure this program such that it could take input from multiple brands of Pulse Oximeters, from Respironics machines, from Resmed machines & from the different types of machines (auto vs bilevel).

If we could do an open source implementation of such a program it might go a long way to providing cpap users with software designed by them for them.

But, such an effort is not a one person job - it would need a few dedicated people to address different aspects. I could provide an overall architecture and choose optimal (and modern) software to do it in but then at most could code some parts of it in cooperation with otghers - the usual 'open source' type project.

Cheers

DSM

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:35 pm

Dsm,

While I also marvel at your lengthy contributions on this forum, I must agree with GoofyUT, Rested Gal, Bob... and Goofproof. I'd even venture to posit the current leader in the pack for recording really useful data is Respironics. Respironics, without a doubt, gathers the best data of any xpap machine - useful and IMHO *reliable* data.

dsm wrote:I have no doubt that this post will attract the usual anon & guest attacks and perhaps criticism from some regulars with vested interests, but I claim that I state facts and have the guts to stand behind them. Even against the obnoxious 'anons' & any attacking 'guests'.

If I wrote stuff like that, I would also "dread times when I am sure a comment will be pounced on by anons/guests." With those words, you are inviting the very attacks you say you dread.

BTW, who are the "regulars with vested interests" you mentioned?

What data does my HC234 Keep?

What data does my HC234 Keep?

Data

Re: Data

F&P machines

Data