Does High O2 From Using Cpap Inhibit Dreaming

[borgready]

When I use my bipap I sleep good. I usually don't remember dreaming. When I don't use the bipap, usually dosing off before I can put it on, I remember the dreams more easily and I get the recharging benefits of dreaming. So my question is does going without air(apneas) help trigger off dreaming cycles that have the benefits of chemical restoration in the brain. I am not sure what the medical terminology is for that process. I just know if I don't go through that dreaming process sleep will kick in an hour or two. If I go through that dreaming cycle at the end of my sleep for the night I feel totally recharged and don't have problems staying awake for the day. I find that using the bipap keeps my 02 high enough that dreaming cycles don't get triggered. The effect of using the machine means that I will try to keep falling asleep after a short time of being awake. When I do dose off and go without air(lowered o2) the dreaming will be set off. The only problem with that is my tolerence to going with out air is getting lower and lower. So now when I do go with out air I notice the unplesant effect. A coulple of years ago my tolerence to going with out air was much better and I could go through that dreaming process and be recharged for the day.

Can anyone point me in the direction studies or books that talk about what I am describing? Is this what narcolepsy is?

[kteague]

Using a bi-pap machine enables the body/brain to get normal oxygen, as it promotes breathing. This is how those without sleep apnea function every night, and how the body is designed to function, so I can't imagine that having a normal oxygen level maintained would inhibit dreaming. Keep in mind I'm just another cpap user and have no medical expertise in this, so take this for what it is worth. But I wonder if you just remember the dreams when not using your machine because the apneas arouse you and I've read that we are most likely to remember our dreams if we wake up during them or shortly after. You could be dreaming while on th machine but if not awakened, don't remember the dreams. When we have apneas, our bodies are subjected to the release of stress hormones. Maybe those hormones keep you revved up a little on into your day. But just like how a stimulant can't replace sleep and will have a limited effectiveness, same with the stress hormones. Feel more energetic temporarily, but not over time. When we are sleep deprived, as with untreated apnea, our dream patterns can get skewed, at least mine did. Consistent effective treatment of your apnea is the best way to give your sleeping brain a chance to get regulated again.

[borgready]

I was hoping to find someone that has some medical background whether its personal experience and book learning or institutional schools. During sleep repiratation rates change. During dreaming the body skeletal musles go limp or are weakened. What I am looking to find out is if a lowered O2 triggers dreaming cycles. This lowered respiration could cause lowered O2 blood levels which trigger the dreaming process. Maintain a 02 level thats above this trigger threshold and the dreaming process does not engage or go through its full cycle. A person sleeps but does not enter into the restorative dreaming cycle. Apneas disrupt the higher level sleeping cycles and keeps them from completing their cycles by causing the person to wake up for a moment. Someone that reads or interprets sleep studies might be able to see patterns in peoples brainwaves.

[borgready]

Does anyone use a cpap machine and find that they sleep but they still have problems staying awake during the day? So even though the apneas are reduced, they really don't see a benefit from the machine and quit using it.

[rested gal]

I wonder if you just remember the dreams when not using your machine because the apneas arouse you and I've read that we are most likely to remember our dreams if we wake up during them or shortly after. You could be dreaming while on th machine but if not awakened, don't remember the dreams.

I think Kathy nailed it.

borgready, you are probably dreaming normally while using your bipap. If you don't wake up during a dream, it's unlikely you'd remember it or even be aware in the morning of having dreamed many times during the night.

I personally think it's a good sign to not be aware of dreaming or remember having dreamed during the night. To me that means your therapy is effective, allowing you to sleep peacefully through REM (the sleep cycle when the most vivid dreaming is thought to occur) without having an apnea disturb your REM sleep and awaken you. REM is also when apneas hit most people who have Obstructive Sleep Apnea the hardest.

LINKS to dreaming - dreams - REM rebound
viewtopic.php?t=3524

What I am looking to find out is if a lowered O2 triggers dreaming cycles.

I'm not anything in the medical field, so this is just my opinion -- I doubt it. I've never read anything that suggests that. The sleep cycles have been pretty well studied and generally follow a fairly predictable "time" pattern after a person falls asleep. The first REM cycle usually happening about 90 minutes after falling asleep, and every 90 minutes thereafter, with each REM cycle being longer than the previous one. A person's age has a bearing on how much time is "normal" to spend in REM and in the other stages.

This is a site you might be interested in digging into:
http://www.sleephomepages.org/sleepsyllabus/

Does anyone use a cpap machine and find that they sleep but they still have problems staying awake during the day? So even though the apneas are reduced, they really don't see a benefit from the machine and quit using it.

Happens a lot, I'd guess. Even if cpap is doing its part of the job perfectly (keeping the airway open so the person can breathe easily while asleep) there can be any number of other things that have nothing to do with OSA or CPAP treatment, that could make a person be sleepy, tired, or fatigued during the day.

Also, if a person's mask is uncomfortable on the face, or the mask prevents them from sleeping in positions they like, or if there are other "equipment" issues that disturb the sleep (noise from the machine, noise from mask leaks or the mask exhaust, difficulty exhaling against pressure, etc.) those things can cause sleep disruptions that keep the person from feeling refreshed in the morning. It can take awhile (months, even) for a new cpap user to get it all comfy and get used to this crazy new way of sleeping. For awhile it can be a tradeoff of sorts -- trading off the sleep disruptions from apneas (that the person probably wasn't aware of) for the sleep disruptions caused by a mask (that the person is very much aware of.) Either way, sleep disruptions are sleep disruptions, so using CPAP can leave a person still as sleepy, or even feeling worse, than before using CPAP. The longterm benefit, however, is worth putting a lot of effort into "getting used to CPAP."

[DreamLady]

IWhat I am looking to find out is if a lowered O2 triggers dreaming cycles.

I think it can change the character of a dream. Early on in my experience with apnea (it's also easier to look back at these things) I would have dreams of people chasing me, trying to kill me, strangling me, etc. I would also awake in a panic, after FIGHTING to get awake (fighting some monster) to realize I was paralyzed and couldn't breathe. What would seem to take hours, probably was only seconds, but it was absolutely terrifying. Now that I'm on cpap I almost never remember dreams at all anymore, and never totally wake up until my alarm goes off.

I realize now that I was really fighting to breathe and the dreams were my body's way of trying to warn me something is wrong, wake up! As my apnea got worse, I actually dreamt LESS, because I was never getting into REM sleep. I had NO IDEA how exhausted I was until I started therapy.

[borgready]

Yea I got the scrary dreams too. Like you said it is the minds mechanism to scare you and wake you up. For many years I never realized that and I would have some really crazy dreams and kind of liked it and wanted it. They would be vivid and have awesome detail in some of them. Well now I have problems getting through the dreams due to a weakened heart. I am starting to suspect that when you have these REM cycles or dreams that the body shuts down the breathing to a minimum and this allows the dreams to engage. I know the skeketal muscles go limp. I have been aware while that process was engaging a few times and you can feel the muscles going limp. I don't know what is tought to sleep techs and if they know this litte piece of information. I would like to find some serious studies on this. Going back to the body shutting down breathing to minimum, I suspect that the better and more vivid the dream the more your mind is getting O2 deprived blood. My guess is that as long as your heart is strong and healthy and can take operating on a low O2 level for several minutes without putting off wake up triggers then you will get some really cool dreams. In my first sleep study I had a really instense vivid dream(it was a death dream) but then woke up with some chest pains. The sleep tech never said anything and the doctor just blew it off like it was no problem.

[apneawho]

I am dreaming more now that I am on CPAP.

[billbolton]

When I don't use the bipap, usually dosing off before I can put it on, I remember the dreams more easily and I get the recharging benefits of dreaming.

If they are truly sleeping well, most people usually wont remember their dreams..... unless they are awakened during a dream by an external event, like an alarm clock going off etc.

If you remembering dreaming when not using PAP treatment, that is usually a good prima facie indication that you are not sleeping soundly and are partially arousing because of SDB related events (and that is why you recall your dreams), so whatever caused your feeling of being recharged was not a product of dreaming per se.

Cheers,

Bill

[pst333]

You could always try setting an alarm for various times late at night (when REM sleep is typically the largest fraction of your sleep cycle), say 4:30 or 5 am, and see if you recall a dream when woken up by the alarm clock while on CPAP.

[borgready]

I am dreaming more now that I am on CPAP.

How is your sleep? Are you sleeping good? What kind of dreams do you have and when do you have them(end of sleep when you go to get up)?
Do you ever look at you Machine Data and look for hypopneas or other problems that you might not realize?

[borgready]

If you remembering dreaming when not using PAP treatment, that is usually a good prima facie indication that you are not sleeping soundly and are partially arousing because of SDB related events (and that is why you recall your dreams), so whatever caused your feeling of being recharged was not a product of dreaming per se.

Your right there. If you sleep right you don't remember your dreams. My sleep has been fragmented since my early teens. So I wake between the sleep cycles. Usually there is dreaming as the last stage of the sleep cycle. Then I wake up before the next sleep cycle because that is when your in your lightest sleep. I wake up and can't go back to sleep. So I just get up and do stuff that needs to be done. In an hour or two, I can feel the onset of my brain trying to enter the next sleep cycle. So then I just go back to bed and sleep good for two hours. The cycle starts over again. I feel refreshed, sharp, and alert after that dreaming. It take about 3 to 4 sleep cycles before you get to that last sleep cycle. Get that in and your good for the day.That last sleep cycles REM stage always has the best dreams. I can usually feel it because I am more alert than in the previous awakenings. If you don't get all of your sleep cycles in then the brain keeps trying to engage in another sleep cycle. That's when you keep falling asleep at all the wrong times. I don't know what dreaming does in the brain but I can say that it recharges the mind.

[peter_g]

I've only tried CPAP one night , and I remembered dreaming several times during the night, usually its only when I wake up in the morning, Ive had those waking paralysis things in the past, and they were scary, I initially tried to fight my way awake by jerking then learned to relax and let them pass. recently I had a very scary monster thing come at me which I awoke to, so I am guessing these sorts of things are related to the apnea. little wonder when you realise that apnea is a struggle between sleeping, waking, and little death threats from asphyxiation.
I expect to remember my dreams better when I wake up a few times in the night when Im on CPAP. I actually hope I do, I listen to dreams when I can.
the suggestion to set the alarm regularly to test it is a good one. you can go further and write them down in a dream diary, and look for changes from night to night which might tell a story. being receptive to them could help remember them more, meeting the inconscious mind half way. this all assumes you're a nice person with a good conscience and an open mind.

[kteague]

Just to commiserate, the nature of my dreams has changed also. At one time I was keeping a journal of the dreams I remembered and I think there's over 50 dreams I've logged that were related to someone or something suffocating, strangling, choking, dying, etc. I still dream but in the last 5 years rarely have a scary dream. When I do, I'm guessing they're in conjunction with an occasional residual apnea. For those who awake to hallucinations, that can be a part of other sleep disorders, but a friend of mine was told her low oxygen with apneas was causing hers, and they stopped with cpap use.

For the original poster, am I correct that your question for sleep techs is if oxygen levels normally decrease during REM? I think that would have to be clarified as it's not unusual with sleep apnea to have more events during REM and that would cause lower oxygen readings, not the same as your question.

[borgready]

For the original poster, am I correct that your question for sleep techs is if oxygen levels normally decrease during REM? I think that would have to be clarified as it's not unusual with sleep apnea to have more events during REM and that would cause lower oxygen readings, not the same as your question.

I have a theory that lowered oxygen levels allows the brain to go to the REM or dreaming stage of sleep. If a person maintains high oxygen levels then the brain will not jump to the REM stage of sleep. The body has different ways to controll the level of O2. One is hyponea or a series of hyponeas. The other is shallow regular breathing. The other is a slowed rate of breaths taken. My guess is that it is a combination of all three. The breathin rythm might lool rather chaotic during REM. I am not sure how low the O2 has to go but I would guess in the high 80s. If you maintain mid to high 90s then you might not get that jump to REM.