Losing your short term memory ? - thats life !

[dsm]

As an older member of cpaptalk (well lets say officially able to retire but won't ) was interested in the issue of short & long term memory loss.
There are some links at the bottom of this post.

My mother (a serious case of undiagnosed OSA) reached the age of approx 86 but by that time she had really lost the ability to associate words with objects. Another way of putting this is that while her right brain could take the visual, aural, olfactory etc: inputs, and recognize them, her left brain could not translate the recognized patterns into the right words. Put yet another way, she had Alzheimer's & was losing her memory.
In her last few days she would say things like I know you but I can't remember your name (right brain has recognition but left brain unable to activate the words previously associated with the pattern of me). A short time prior to that I would visit her & say hi mum I am Doug, she might say are you my husband (I had the same name).

At the time I merely went with the Alzheimer's description & considered this was what happened to some people. What was obvious though was that mother was physically healthy & remained so until she finally decided it was time to move on & then she just stopped eating. In the nursing home she was in at the end, the staff said this was not uncommon to them, that is, to see someone decide to 'move on' by losing interest if food.

Because we all knew mother was a champion snorer, I have subsequently put her severe memory loss down to 20-30 years of undiagnosed OSA. But the doubts are always are there. Have often thought, well, if it happened to mother it may well happen to me. So am very conscious of issues to do with memory & any signs of changes. Last month my wife's father passed away. He was 89 and had suddenly got an infection & went into intensive care & after 3 weeks during which we all realized (including himself) that his days were numbered, he passed away. But he was as sharp as a tack in his thinking right up until the last 3 days. We all took turns to visit him & chat & discuss sport or life or whatever. He was still telling his famous jokes up until about 4 days before he died. He was making or taking phone calls up to about 5 days before he died. One thing that was different was that when he knew it was close (last 3 days) he did ask my wife (his older of 2 children) to stay with him in the hospital at night, which she did.

So have seen a complete contrast in memory & thinking between two older people I knew & loved well. What has added to some understanding of memory & thinking was that a couple of years ago, my youngest daughter (classified with asperger's ) at age 36 had a stroke that nearly killed her. The stroke area was in her left brain right in the region of language & speech. It was so big the surgeons who saved her life would not touch it but left it in place after removing a large bit of her skull which was about 4 " in diameter. The clotted area was 6.5 cm by 4.5 cm by about 5 cm. Anne had to wear a football helmet for close to 8 months before the doctor returned her missing bit of skull.
http://www.internetage.ws/anne/anne-report-1.jpg -- Neurosurgeons report 1
http://www.internetage.ws/anne/anne-report-2.jpg -- Neurosurgeons report 2

When we 1st spoke to the doctors about Anne they said if she recovered it may take years before we see any improvement & we would need to be very patient. They said it could be that she is paralyzed perhaps down her right side. They said she was showing no signs of response to the nursing staff who would try to get her to respond in some way. Also, we were told that the damage was so severe she may not be able to speak even if she regained some movement. But he did add that because she was a known case of asperger's syndrome, they could not predict how that may alter their prognosis.

Within 3 weeks of her operation she was smiling & able to react to commands to do with her left side. She would try to speak but nothing came out. Within several more weeks she was moving her right arm on command, then shortly after that her right leg. Within 2 months was speaking in a whisper then we introduced her to a wheelchair which she thought was a load of fun then a couple of months later we had her walking. Approx 6 months after the stroke she was back at home and going for short walks. Of all the issues that became intriguing it was her speech. Anne had what is called aphasia which is where her undamaged right brain could recognize patterns but when the request was sent from the right brain to the speech part in her left brain, the wrong words would come out.

Aphasia - http://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/voice/aphasia.htm

An example would be how when asked what her toothbrush was for, she would say it was to clean her ear. If I pointed to her teeth she would again repeat ear. When we explained the contradiction she would often laugh even if she was a bit puzzled at first. Another example of right brain /left brain confusion due to lost data was when we showed her a banana. She said I know I like that but what is it ?. She could spell words without any difficulty (a right brain function). Often we saw her moving her right forefinger on her left palm & eventually I realized she was spelling out words then she would speak them. Over the following few months she began to relearn lost connections between right brain images & patterns & the left brain look up table of words for what the images & patterns meant. Today 2 years later she talks pretty much as well as she did before. There has been a bit of a decline in her measured IQ but to us she is the same happy chatty girl she always was.

It still amazes us that 2 years before, we had been given a stark choice at 3am one morning, either let her die or allow the surgeons to operate which would probably save her life but that her quality of life would be drastically curtailed. The choice was never in doubt to us. We knew she was such a battler of a child that with her attitude & our determination we could & would pull her through.

In an indirect way, what Anne showed us was an insight into the deterioration that had happened with mother. Mum's right brain seemed to function ok but it was the word recall (the left brain look up table as I am calling it) that was letting her down. She could construct sentences ok but just lost the ability - as Anne had for a while) to connect right brain holistic imagery to meaningful words. Anne too never really lost any ability to construct a sentence, but she did repeatedly come up with a wrong word. Further examples were calling her brother her mother or Mother her Father. It has been a testament to how our brains work that she seems to have reconstructed the missing translations so quickly and effectively. She probably was less 'shocked' by her mind confusion that other people might have been. Anne would often say "my brain doesn't work " but she soldiered on & says that a lot less than she used to.

**************************************************************************************************************

Anyway, for anyone worried about memory loss, visit this web site & be assured that it is a normal part of aging.
(that explanation works for me ) ...

http://familydoctor.org/online/famdocen ... r/124.html


Below is a link to an amazing video put out by a medical researcher who had a stroke & like Anne nearly died from it but was saved & who took many years to recover but has done so almost fully. She explains in detail how the stroke impacted her as it happened. Anne told us months later how she could clearly recall seeing us around her bed & how she was not able to communicate at the time but could describe us and what we were doing and in quite a bit of detail. At these times we still had no idea she even knew we were there but it turns out she did, and how !.

Jill Bolte Taylor's 'Stoke of insight' (video clip) ...

http://www.ted.com/talks/jill_bolte_tay ... sight.html


DSM

[echo]

hi dsm, interesting ideas. I too started have these sort of memory problems a few years before starting CPAP. A lot of that has improved. I wouldn't be able to remember the word but could remember a related one (like oven instead of toaster). I couldn't remember the names of famous movie actors, whereas I used to be able to easily recite the names of actors in a certain movie (yes, very useful skill!). Also blanking out the names of acquaintences I hadn't seen for some time. I also noticed I would write the homynym of the word I was thinking of instead of the word itself (write/right, too/two) - that was very frustrating since I used to be a very eloquent and precise writer. I also had trouble "thinking on my feet" especially if giving a public talk or brainstorming on a problem with someone. The decline started in 2004 after my father passed away (excessive stress probably), and reached a peak sometime after starting CPAP. And I'm only 32 Since then it's gotten better, but treating the hypothyroidism has also helped considerably. I don't know if that's because my brain is able to function better (more oxygen/nutrients) or if it's because my sleep is improved.

I'm really happy to hear that Anne is doing so well! I remember when she had that stroke, what a scare for your family.

The brain really is an incredible piece of organic machinery!!!

[dsm]

Echo
It sure can be a worry feeling one is losing memory skills. I particularly noticed you mention stress during the period you observed the deterioration. Am long a believe that stress is a killer & accelerates aging & deterioration of many body & mind functions. Just look at the appearance of anyone who gets elected President & in 3 years they usually seem to age many times that !.

I wonder if the damage done by stress is recoverable ? - I suspect not but it is a good line of research & relevant I suspect to many of us here.

DSM

A couple of links talking about what brain damage OSA can do ...

This link suggests the damage may have started *before* OSA began !
http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb03/sleep.aspx

A feb 2010 report (pretty much as we he ... key=112958

[GumbyCT]

Jill Bolte Taylor's 'Stoke of insight' (video clip) ...

http://www.ted.com/talks/jill_bolte_tay ... sight.html

An excellent Presentation by Dr. Jill - well worth your time.

I can relate to so much of what she said having been there - done that.

My bleed was on my right side and severely impacted my short term memory. However, I know I couldn't remember how to tie my shoes, write a check, make change for a dollar, among many other things I am sure. Which I think are all long term?

I have no recall for at least 6 weeks of that time. I had to relearn many things including walking - something I had done for 49 yrs prior (long term?). If the brain pathways could not be retrained I would likely have ended up in a nursing home. And as Dr. Jill said it is a long and slow process. When I looked back to previous yrs I could see improvements.

I'm sure I still have processing fubars but most don't notice my glitches now.

I was not Dx'd w/OSA for some 4 yrs after the stroke but when thinking back had the signs & symptoms for some 30yrs. That said I feel that OSA - specifically low O2 is largely the cause for reduced memory function. The long term lack of O2 for the Central Processor slowly kills brain cells and the cells of many other vital organs that we attribute this decay to "old age" - because it is gradual.

My biggest problem now is mutli-tasking (or focus) which could also be ADD or AAD (Adult Atten. Disorder) not sure if AAD is real or not. If fact it is Ritalin to which they attribute my sudden turn for improvement. A drug I told the doc I didn't want to take. She conned me into trying it

The moral of my story is to feed your brain O2 even when sleeping. I think it will improve your memory.

So if you are on CPAP - stick with it. If you are having trouble getting used to wearing the plastic mask all nite - find a way to make it work, you won't be sorry.

[dsm]

GumbyCT

That is a great recovery. From all I learned during Anne's episode, the right brain records the holistic data (smell color, taste, image, texture etc:) and are by and large our memories. From what I read & also from observation, left brain is where the language area is located and the word area and the processing area (logic).

That observation implies that as long as we have our right brain intact we have the life memories & the left brain remaining intact allows us to process the raw data stashed in the right side. Seeing Anne in action showed that she was able to recover memories. In fact after her stroke she kept having episodes of really clear memories from 20 or so years before & would suddenly want to talk about things we had all but forgotten ourselves.

It seems that to lose right brain is to lose part of our lives. But, the good side from a personal POV is that if you don't know you have lost it you won't miss it. But it must have been quite an experience to have to learn to walk again !. In fact that must rate as a terrific achievement to do so in middle age & says how well your brain still works.

OSA seems to cause damage to both sides & thus not good.

Tks

DSM

[GumbyCT]

While in a stroke location is everything. I think in a clot the damage might be confined to that area but in a bleed the brain is forced so that pressure is put on another area of the brain. If I understand correctly, there are spiny protrusions inside the skull that can damage or put pressure another area.

I clearly remember the night my brain exploded having left side paralysis and the inability to say what I was thinking. I just couldn't form the words. Just like when you have a dream but can't speak or scream? I could see her but couldn't speak to her, then I reached out with my right hand.

All this was clearly changed when I was helped to a sitting position. Thinking back it was likely the pooling blood pressing on different area of my brain.

[pdean44]

That is quite a story of courage and perserverance for the child and parents.
Thank you for sharing.
I am glad your daughter is doing better. A stark reminder of how fragile life is.

[fidelfs]

My biggest problem now is mutli-tasking (or focus) which could also be ADD or AAD (Adult Atten. Disorder) not sure if AAD is real or not. If fact it is Ritalin to which they attribute my sudden turn for improvement. A drug I told the doc I didn't want to take. She conned me into trying it

Gumbyct,

Could you elaborate what changes you have seen with Ritalin? I am an aspie (self diagnosed and seeing a psychologist to confirm it. He is very close to corroborate my suspicion) and I am taking Wellbutrin for my anxiety and it is helping with focus but not at the level I would like it.
I think I will ask my primary doctor to try Ritalin. Aspies shares a lot of symptoms with ADHD but not all the symptoms.

[dsm]

pdean

Tks for the comment - yes it was a very trying period re Anne - I think almost any parent with a particularly special child, feels an extra pang when things go wrong. Our children are precious & we only normally have one good go at having a family. Our 'little ones' tend to remain our children most of our lives (even though not necessarily from their point of view ).

I had another very interesting link that explains which parts of the brain are associated with particular functions. It sure is a good reminder of why we need to keep our brains fed with oxygen & managed with good sleep.

http://www.waiting.com/brainfunction.html

DSM

[dsm]

My biggest problem now is mutli-tasking (or focus) which could also be ADD or AAD (Adult Atten. Disorder) not sure if AAD is real or not. If fact it is Ritalin to which they attribute my sudden turn for improvement. A drug I told the doc I didn't want to take. She conned me into trying it

Gumbyct,

Could you elaborate what changes you have seen with Ritalin? I am an aspie (self diagnosed and seeing a psychologist to confirm it. He is very close to corroborate my suspicion) and I am taking Wellbutrin for my anxiety and it is helping with focus but not at the level I would like it.
I think I will ask my primary doctor to try Ritalin. Aspies shares a lot of symptoms with ADHD but not all the symptoms.

Fidelfs,

Was there any any particular characteristic that caught your own attention re that ?. Daughter Anne got all the way through school & was 24 before a well known doctor who is an Aspeger's practitioner finally gave his verdict and that was after wife had been to several teachers & later specialists. The standard line prior to this doc was 'she is a late developer, she will be ok in time'.

Cheers

DSM

[fidelfs]

DSM,

It was in my late 30's early 40's working as IT consultant and having problem performing well in interviews but not when at work, so my bosses had a problem understanding why I performed so poorly during the interview but when working I was one of the best. My area of work is with Oracle (Database) and applications ranging from Financials to manufacturing.

Most of the interviews are concentrated into remembering things like the name of a file, field, etc. I am not capable to remember things when I am asked for, the only way that I can remember is when I am working in front a computer and I am really good at it.
Worry about loosing short term memory was a factor that started my whole research, you could see that I have talked in the forums about Hypothyroid, testosterone, etc. All of those problems impact memory and that is the reason why I found them (my aspie helped me with my research ).

Early 2005-2006 found what aspergers syndrome was. I was looking for ADHD because my problems to keep focus and short term memory problem. I had some ADHD symptoms but just a few so I knew right there that ADHD was not my problem. During my search for Asperger, I took some tests and my results are in the high ranks for an aspie. It was like I was reading my life story when I was reading about Aspergers.

When I was a kid (I am not from USA originally), my high school made me take a test where they found out that I have a high IQ and that I learn faster than the rest. They suggested some schools for gifted students, but financially was not possible.
I had all the symptoms all my life but I was undiagnosed because I thought that was normal at least for me. My memory problem was the trigger to find Asperger and now I am happy because I can understand me completely.

[fidelfs]

http://www.waiting.com/brainfunction.html

DSM,

I think we have being looking at the same websites, that one it is very interesting.

[dsm]

http://www.waiting.com/brainfunction.html

DSM,

I think we have being looking at the same websites, that one it is very interesting.

Fidelfs,

This was the guy who finally diagnosed daughter Anne. Anne was living in NZ & Tony did visits there & my wife lined up a call from a recommendation. He is a very impressive doc.

http://www.tonyattwood.com.au/

DSM

[GumbyCT]

Gumbyct,

Could you elaborate what changes you have seen with Ritalin? I am an aspie (self diagnosed and seeing a psychologist to confirm it. He is very close to corroborate my suspicion) and I am taking Wellbutrin for my anxiety and it is helping with focus but not at the level I would like it.
I think I will ask my primary doctor to try Ritalin. Aspies shares a lot of symptoms with ADHD but not all the symptoms.

Sorry for the delay - I missed this.

In any case, there is not much to elaborate on. I am just passing on what I was told. I have virtually no recall of this except I was very very confused and couldn't remember anything. I don't know even how long I was given this med even.

For awhile after I was released, gf would do imitations of me and tell me stories of how messed up I was. We called them Gumby stories. Of course, since things turned out alright we thought they were funny.

I remember the Chief of the ambulance telling me that my family was worried about me. I said, hell if I knew what was goin on I woulda been worried too.

[BlackSpinner]

DSM,

It was in my late 30's early 40's working as IT consultant and having problem performing well in interviews but not when at work, so my bosses had a problem understanding why I performed so poorly during the interview but when working I was one of the best. My area of work is with Oracle (Database) and applications ranging from Financials to manufacturing.

Most of the interviews are concentrated into remembering things like the name of a file, field, etc. I am not capable to remember things when I am asked for, the only way that I can remember is when I am working in front a computer and I am really good at it.
Worry about loosing short term memory was a factor that started my whole research, you could see that I have talked in the forums about Hypothyroid, testosterone, etc. All of those problems impact memory and that is the reason why I found them (my aspie helped me with my research ).

Early 2005-2006 found what aspergers syndrome was. I was looking for ADHD because my problems to keep focus and short term memory problem. I had some ADHD symptoms but just a few so I knew right there that ADHD was not my problem. During my search for Asperger, I took some tests and my results are in the high ranks for an aspie. It was like I was reading my life story when I was reading about Aspergers.


I had all the symptoms all my life but I was undiagnosed because I thought that was normal at least for me. My memory problem was the trigger to find Asperger and now I am happy because I can understand me completely.

Welcome to the club

Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programmer%27s_Stone
There are links in there
I found this concept very interesting http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?MappersVsPackers

My problem is not keeping focus but I get totally into focus and the real world just disappears. It is a much nicer place too.