My friend t-bone started a thread yesterday here but it got largely ignored, I think because people just didn't know what it was about from the title. So I'm starting a new thread with it to see if we can get more response. Here's my original post:
Let me begin this thread by saying that CPAPtalk is an amazing resource. Yes, there are other CPAP message boards out there, but this is the only one where the users are allowed to pretty much police themselves. This is good in that it allows for freedom of discussion that is not seen in other forums, but it is bad in that that freedom can be (and sometimes is) abused by some posters.
Given the recent spate of personal attacks on this forum, I wanted to start a thread asking folks to take some time for introspection, and to evaluate their contributions to the forum as of late. I could find no mission statement on this site – but it seems to me that the mission of this forum is to give CPAP users a place to ask questions and receive friendly, helpful replies from posters who have been there before. It seems to me that we are largely falling away from that.
This is not a medical or scientific forum, and it was never intended to be. As others have pointed out in the past, there is a disclaimer on the bottom of the page saying that any advice here is not professional medical advice – and that’s the way it should be.
There is much talk here of carefully choosing one’s words so as to avoid leading newbies in the wrong direction. When someone posts their opinion, but neglects to say “This is my opinion,” some posters complain that that comment is therefore to be interpreted as a statement of fact.
However, I think we give newbies far too little credit. I know that when I came to this forum, knowing it was a forum for users to give one another advice, I assumed EVERY post to be a post expressing an opinion or personal experience, unless someone specifically said “I am a tech.” I read post after post after post, and soon came to know what posters were trustworthy, and which were not. I doubt I am an exception to the rule. Since this is a forum by users, for users, the underlying assumption should be that everything is strictly opinion, unless stated otherwise.
Additionally, as this is a forum for adults, I think we would all do well to remember that personal attacks only make our opinions look less valid. Even if we strongly disagree with something another poster has said, a courteous, polite, “I don’t agree. Here’s what I think,” goes a lot further in convincing others of the merit of our arguments. Using sarcasm or being condescending towards other posters is inappropriate; your fellow posters, regardless of what you may think of their opinions, deserve better than that. They are fellow posters, fellow apnea sufferers, and most importantly, fellow human beings.
My proposal is that, in order to ensure we remember the original purpose of cpaptalk.com, to remind us that we are accountable for what we say, and to ensure that this forum retains the “good” characteristics of self-policing while negating the “bad” aspects of that as much as possible, is that CPAP.com allow us at least one moderator. This moderator would, by necessity, be an impartial user that would volunteer for the job. This moderator’s responsibility would be to scan all threads, looking for personal attacks or things that border on personal attacks. Users that stepped out of line would be warned, and, if they accumulate enough infractions, banned from this forum temporarily (and possibly permanently, if they continue). The moderator would be accountable to someone at cpaptalk.com as well, and if users felt they were improperly sanctioned, they would be able to appeal to cpaptalk.com, who would evaluate the moderator’s decision to ensure it was indeed impartial. I know, I know, a lot of you don't like the idea of a moderator - but if we want to keep this a pleasant place to be, where everyone can post without fear, it's become apparent one is necessary. Some adults have a hard time behaving themselves when they feel strongly about something sometimes - and CPAP is something that, by nature, many are going to feel strongly about.
In conclusion, I wish to thank all contributors to cpaptalk.com for their overwhelmingly positive and helpful advice, and I hope we can all continue to make this forum a place where everyone feels free to post their own opinion without fear.
Keeping Our Wonderful Forum a Great Place to Be
-
CollegeGirl
- Posts: 1038
- Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:49 pm
- Location: VA
Keeping Our Wonderful Forum a Great Place to Be
Machine: M-Series Auto
Mask: Headrest
No humidifier
On the hose since 2005.
Mask: Headrest
No humidifier
On the hose since 2005.
I agree that we have a wonderful forum here, and personal insults should be kept at a minimum.
But, I disagree that we need a monitor. Other forums have monitors that remove posts. Freedom of speech is what makes this forum what it is.
To me, if you see someone who consistently insults others, then send them a PM. If we inundate him/her with PMs, then they will get the idea.
And really, how often are we talking about? I don't think it's a big issue.
But, I disagree that we need a monitor. Other forums have monitors that remove posts. Freedom of speech is what makes this forum what it is.
To me, if you see someone who consistently insults others, then send them a PM. If we inundate him/her with PMs, then they will get the idea.
And really, how often are we talking about? I don't think it's a big issue.
_________________
| Machine: DreamStation Auto CPAP Machine |
| Humidifier: DreamStation Heated Humidifier |
| Additional Comments: Compliant since April 2003. (De-cap-itated Aura). |
-
Mile High Sleeper
- Posts: 275
- Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:48 pm
- Location: Colorado
- Contact:
Call for Civility and Diversity
College Girl, I'm glad you started this because I've been giving it some thought, along the lines of your posting. I’m on a soapbox now, because I care about the well being of this forum. It’s been so helpful to me and to so many other people. I want to bring some concerns and suggestions to the forum community in four areas: 1) personal attacks, 2) groupthink, 3) consequences, and 4) suggestions. This applies to future threads but is based on past threads. I think we each need to be moderator of our own posts, and watch out for the other guy too, whether or not the forum gets a moderator.
1. Personal attacks. Every posting has two parts. One is the content or idea/fact/opinion about some aspect of CPAP treatment, the What. The second is the way it’s expressed, the How, the interpersonal communication process, and the overall spirit of the message, on a scale from helpful to mean. We’re good at expressing our What, the opinions/facts/own truths in the content part. A few posters are sometimes not so good in the How, the way it’s expressed, when we slip in personal attacks on another’s motives, life, character, knowledge, or ability. A personal attack takes away from the content and negates the overall usefulness of the posting. The recent long thread viewtopic/t18791/ is just the latest example. Rested gal pointed out some examples of personal attacks by several posters on page 5 of that thread, and several others are evident by reading the thread. Later, there was one apology.
-SWS sums it up in that thread: "...The answer, I think, is to avoid the human tendency to incorrectly condemn based on mere superficialities. So how can anyone on a message board, of all places, definitively assign psychologic motives then publicly condemn perceived character traits? I think the practice of attacking concepts, principals, and even methods, without attacking people best serve any rational forum or venue."
2. Groupthink happens when a group, in this case the forum community, suppresses (through attack in this group) unpopular minority viewpoints, useful or not, in order to come up with a false consensus and the forced conformity of a uniform front, needed or not. (A notable example of groupthink was the space shuttle Challenger disaster. Early on, an engineer expressed concern about the O rings. His minority opinion was ignored through groupthink, the ring was a problem, the shuttle blew up, and people died. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink )
In my opinion, the thread mentioned above is the forum’s example of groupthink. A person brought up health concerns about a popular piece of equipment. Her ideas and person were trivialized and attacked. We inadvertently reach consensus on a lot of things in this forum, and it’s often helpful to readers to have a sense of the group’s consensus about things. However, consensus is not necessary in every case. We agree that we each have our own mask preferences. Can we also have a tolerance for individual differences, experiences and opinions, even if we think it’s not a very good opinion or it’s not presented the way we would have presented it? Can we agree to peacefully disagree, without first attacking each other which then leads to a defense? Most posters to the thread did support diversity of opinion without personal attack.
3. Consequences. Some of the members here have seen other forums disappear or dropped them because of their poor quality of What and How, content and civility. On this forum, we pride ourselves on supporting each other. But if I were a new lurker or member, I’d have second thoughts about the support on this forum when I see other members attacking or being attacked. How much support could I get from people who personally attack others in a public setting? Does a trust relationship build with the forum as a whole? Can I trust any of a poster’s content when in another post he or she attacks others? By suppressing minority opinion, we may be suppressing a good or bad or indifferent idea, but at least it can be an idea that leads to further discoveries. If a poster has an opinion or experience to relate and sees a history of attacks, he or she may think twice about expressing their ideas, especially if it’s a controversial idea or minority viewpoint.
Attack is a time-honored way to shut down freedom of speech. People wonder, how long until the pack turns on me? A diversity of rich ideas and caring support is what makes this community successful. Groupthink and threat will shut off ideas, trust, and support. How many members have already stopped reading the forum? How many are holding back from contributing, especially if they think their idea may provoke attack?
4. Suggestions:
1. Focus on the content, not on the person. Or as Sergeant Joe Friday said in Dragnet (ya gotta be old to remember this), “Just the facts, ma’am.” Or in this forum, “just the opinions about facts,” if not an actual fact, the What, content.
2. Support the person. Remember there is a real, feeling person behind those words on the screen. As we all know, that person is dealing with a serious medical condition and difficult therapy. We do a good job at supporting their therapy choices and offering emotional support during treatment. Let’s continue to support them even if we disagree with them, even if what they write provokes an emotional reaction in us. A reply that shows civility respects them as a person, even if we disagree with their What.
3. Edit yourself. Or maybe, as TV’s Archie Bunker said to his wife Edith, “Stifle yourself.” Are you having a bad day? Does it show in your behavior? Putting words on a screen is a behavior. It’s easy to whip off a clever, snide comment as one of the gang under the guise of humor or intellectual vigor and under the protective cover of Internet anonymity (even if you state your name). Would you say the same thing to someone you know who is facing you? One person’s flippant comment can be perceived by another as personal insult and attack, a mean-spirited message. Defense is the flip side of the coin of attack. Is either necessary? Especially if you are emotionally charged, maybe think about the effect of your posting on the other guy, and on your public track record of fairness and courtesy, before you hit the submit button. Maybe rather than posting a public message, if you continue to be upset, send a Private Message. The Sufi tradition says there are three gates through which a word must pass before it leaves the mouth: “Is it true?” “Is it kind?” “Is it necessary?”
4. Make things better. Most of us do this now. Keep doing it! When someone is uncivil on the forum, reply; not by taking sides in an adversarial controversy, but by calling for civility. More of the “play nice, kids” type of comments. This is a way to keep the forum healthy for all readers and posters. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Civility
5. Lead by example. There are mostly good role models on the forum. And a few bad role models in some of their postings, unwilling or unable to always show respect for others in their postings, although to me they seem basically well intended at heart. We’re always being a role model, like it or not; a good example or a bad example, post by post.
Thanks to all the posters who took the initiative and brought reason, fairness, and kindness to that thread and other threads and who will continue to do so. Thanks to the posters who are brave enough to state a minority opinion or dissent in a civil manner.
Off my soapbox for now.
1. Personal attacks. Every posting has two parts. One is the content or idea/fact/opinion about some aspect of CPAP treatment, the What. The second is the way it’s expressed, the How, the interpersonal communication process, and the overall spirit of the message, on a scale from helpful to mean. We’re good at expressing our What, the opinions/facts/own truths in the content part. A few posters are sometimes not so good in the How, the way it’s expressed, when we slip in personal attacks on another’s motives, life, character, knowledge, or ability. A personal attack takes away from the content and negates the overall usefulness of the posting. The recent long thread viewtopic/t18791/ is just the latest example. Rested gal pointed out some examples of personal attacks by several posters on page 5 of that thread, and several others are evident by reading the thread. Later, there was one apology.
-SWS sums it up in that thread: "...The answer, I think, is to avoid the human tendency to incorrectly condemn based on mere superficialities. So how can anyone on a message board, of all places, definitively assign psychologic motives then publicly condemn perceived character traits? I think the practice of attacking concepts, principals, and even methods, without attacking people best serve any rational forum or venue."
2. Groupthink happens when a group, in this case the forum community, suppresses (through attack in this group) unpopular minority viewpoints, useful or not, in order to come up with a false consensus and the forced conformity of a uniform front, needed or not. (A notable example of groupthink was the space shuttle Challenger disaster. Early on, an engineer expressed concern about the O rings. His minority opinion was ignored through groupthink, the ring was a problem, the shuttle blew up, and people died. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink )
In my opinion, the thread mentioned above is the forum’s example of groupthink. A person brought up health concerns about a popular piece of equipment. Her ideas and person were trivialized and attacked. We inadvertently reach consensus on a lot of things in this forum, and it’s often helpful to readers to have a sense of the group’s consensus about things. However, consensus is not necessary in every case. We agree that we each have our own mask preferences. Can we also have a tolerance for individual differences, experiences and opinions, even if we think it’s not a very good opinion or it’s not presented the way we would have presented it? Can we agree to peacefully disagree, without first attacking each other which then leads to a defense? Most posters to the thread did support diversity of opinion without personal attack.
3. Consequences. Some of the members here have seen other forums disappear or dropped them because of their poor quality of What and How, content and civility. On this forum, we pride ourselves on supporting each other. But if I were a new lurker or member, I’d have second thoughts about the support on this forum when I see other members attacking or being attacked. How much support could I get from people who personally attack others in a public setting? Does a trust relationship build with the forum as a whole? Can I trust any of a poster’s content when in another post he or she attacks others? By suppressing minority opinion, we may be suppressing a good or bad or indifferent idea, but at least it can be an idea that leads to further discoveries. If a poster has an opinion or experience to relate and sees a history of attacks, he or she may think twice about expressing their ideas, especially if it’s a controversial idea or minority viewpoint.
Attack is a time-honored way to shut down freedom of speech. People wonder, how long until the pack turns on me? A diversity of rich ideas and caring support is what makes this community successful. Groupthink and threat will shut off ideas, trust, and support. How many members have already stopped reading the forum? How many are holding back from contributing, especially if they think their idea may provoke attack?
4. Suggestions:
1. Focus on the content, not on the person. Or as Sergeant Joe Friday said in Dragnet (ya gotta be old to remember this), “Just the facts, ma’am.” Or in this forum, “just the opinions about facts,” if not an actual fact, the What, content.
2. Support the person. Remember there is a real, feeling person behind those words on the screen. As we all know, that person is dealing with a serious medical condition and difficult therapy. We do a good job at supporting their therapy choices and offering emotional support during treatment. Let’s continue to support them even if we disagree with them, even if what they write provokes an emotional reaction in us. A reply that shows civility respects them as a person, even if we disagree with their What.
3. Edit yourself. Or maybe, as TV’s Archie Bunker said to his wife Edith, “Stifle yourself.” Are you having a bad day? Does it show in your behavior? Putting words on a screen is a behavior. It’s easy to whip off a clever, snide comment as one of the gang under the guise of humor or intellectual vigor and under the protective cover of Internet anonymity (even if you state your name). Would you say the same thing to someone you know who is facing you? One person’s flippant comment can be perceived by another as personal insult and attack, a mean-spirited message. Defense is the flip side of the coin of attack. Is either necessary? Especially if you are emotionally charged, maybe think about the effect of your posting on the other guy, and on your public track record of fairness and courtesy, before you hit the submit button. Maybe rather than posting a public message, if you continue to be upset, send a Private Message. The Sufi tradition says there are three gates through which a word must pass before it leaves the mouth: “Is it true?” “Is it kind?” “Is it necessary?”
4. Make things better. Most of us do this now. Keep doing it! When someone is uncivil on the forum, reply; not by taking sides in an adversarial controversy, but by calling for civility. More of the “play nice, kids” type of comments. This is a way to keep the forum healthy for all readers and posters. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Civility
5. Lead by example. There are mostly good role models on the forum. And a few bad role models in some of their postings, unwilling or unable to always show respect for others in their postings, although to me they seem basically well intended at heart. We’re always being a role model, like it or not; a good example or a bad example, post by post.
Thanks to all the posters who took the initiative and brought reason, fairness, and kindness to that thread and other threads and who will continue to do so. Thanks to the posters who are brave enough to state a minority opinion or dissent in a civil manner.
Off my soapbox for now.
_________________
| Mask: Ultra Mirage™ Full Face CPAP Mask with Headgear |
| Additional Comments: SleepZone heated hose, PAPillow, bed wedge, Grossan Hydro-Mate, SnuggleHose, AIEOMed Everest w/ hh, battery pack, DC cord, PadACheek, Headrest pillows |
Mile High Sleeper Gal
Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness that created them. - Albert Einstein
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person. - Mother Teresa
Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness that created them. - Albert Einstein
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person. - Mother Teresa
Every forum is different. When I think of a moderator, I don't think of someone that just deletes posts that express personal attacks. I think this is how it would go in an ideal world.Linda3032 wrote:But, I disagree that we need a monitor. Other forums have monitors that remove posts. Freedom of speech is what makes this forum what it is.
Poster 1: "Poster 2 is stupid."
Moderator: "Please attack the idea, not the person."
*silence*
I really think that if we actually had a moderator, that they would almost NEVER actually use their moderation powers. It's about having real consequences down the line so that you never reach them. And then, it should be obvious that those that do reach them deserved to. Maybe I'm just an idealist though.
Freedom of speech doesn't mean unabated right to say anything to anyone, at least not in any government I've ever heard of. It means freedom to express your ideas UNTIL those ideas pose a threat to the community. People leaving, in my humble opinion, is a threat to this community.
I'm a programmer Jim, not a doctor!
Which puts the moderator in a position of having to read every post in every thread. Big Job.
It also puts the moderator in a position to have to "judge" whether an insult was issued or not, and to what degree.
I foresee (in the not so ideal world that we live in):
Poster 1: "Poster 2 is stupid."
Moderator: "Please attack the idea, not the person."
*silence*
Poster 1: "Moderator is stupid".
..............
It also puts the moderator in a position to have to "judge" whether an insult was issued or not, and to what degree.
I foresee (in the not so ideal world that we live in):
Poster 1: "Poster 2 is stupid."
Moderator: "Please attack the idea, not the person."
*silence*
Poster 1: "Moderator is stupid".
..............
_________________
| Machine: DreamStation Auto CPAP Machine |
| Humidifier: DreamStation Heated Humidifier |
| Additional Comments: Compliant since April 2003. (De-cap-itated Aura). |
Yup, it is. I suppose the best way to go about it would be to PM the moderator if you think you're being attacked with a link to the thread in question to make sure it's in their attention. Even having the presence of someone like that will help people think twice before they submit their posts, even if it's not 100 percent.Linda3032 wrote:Which puts the moderator in a position of having to read every post in every thread. Big Job.
That's fine. The moderator isn't a newbie, and they're actually not a peer in the community any more. They have a hardened skin, and being that they're kinda the teacher on the playground, so to speak, they're used to getting called stupid. It still mitigates the newbie getting offended and leaving issue.Linda3032 wrote:Poster 1: "Moderator is stupid".
The biggest problem is finding a good one.
I'm a programmer Jim, not a doctor!
You were supposed to laugh.Linda3032 wrote:
Poster 1: "Moderator is stupid".
_________________
| Machine: DreamStation Auto CPAP Machine |
| Humidifier: DreamStation Heated Humidifier |
| Additional Comments: Compliant since April 2003. (De-cap-itated Aura). |
-
whatrdreamsmadeof
- Posts: 421
- Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:12 pm
- Location: vA. BEACH, VA.
oops!
Well, just don't let Imus, Rosie, Howard Stern, or Al Sharpton, apply for the job......that folks, IMHO is the problem with a moderator, how do we really know their morals or character..................JMHO.........Ellen
_________________
| Mask | |
 |
Life is not about the amount of breaths you take;
It's about the moments that take your breath away.
It's about the moments that take your breath away.
-
queenwizard
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:08 am
- Location: Pennsylvania
Re: oops!
Well, ideally it'd be someone from the community that's been around a long time and has demonstrated their morals and character.whatrdreamsmadeof wrote:Well, just don't let Imus, Rosie, Howard Stern, or Al Sharpton, apply for the job......that folks, IMHO is the problem with a moderator, how do we really know their morals or character..................JMHO.........Ellen
And Linda, I did laugh, but I thought you made a valid point as well, so I wanted to address it.
I'm a programmer Jim, not a doctor!
Re: oops!
Or Limbaugh, Ingram, or Dr. Laurawhatrdreamsmadeof wrote:Well, just don't let Imus, Rosie, Howard Stern, or Al Sharpton, apply for the job......that folks, IMHO is the problem with a moderator, how do we really know their morals or character..................JMHO.........Ellen
_________________
| Mask | Humidifier | |||
 |  | |||
| Additional Comments: Equipment isn't correct, S9 ASV w/H5i | ||||
-
rested gal
- Posts: 12883
- Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:14 pm
- Location: Tennessee
My vote, not that we're voting... .... is that the forum not have a moderator. Actually, it already does. Johnny Goodman of cpap.com can step in any time.
To his credit, imho, he pretty much lets the forum operate in a laissez faire manner. I think that's one of the biggest strengths of this forum, compared to other apnea boards I've participated in.
To his credit, imho, he pretty much lets the forum operate in a laissez faire manner. I think that's one of the biggest strengths of this forum, compared to other apnea boards I've participated in.
ResMed S9 VPAP Auto (ASV)
Humidifier: Integrated + Climate Control hose
Mask: Aeiomed Headrest (deconstructed, with homemade straps
3M painters tape over mouth
ALL LINKS by rested gal:
viewtopic.php?t=17435
Humidifier: Integrated + Climate Control hose
Mask: Aeiomed Headrest (deconstructed, with homemade straps
3M painters tape over mouth
ALL LINKS by rested gal:
viewtopic.php?t=17435
-
CollegeGirl
- Posts: 1038
- Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:49 pm
- Location: VA
Wow. something on which RG and I disagree.
I agree that the strength of this forum is its freedom. However, since it has been proven over the last couple of weeks that people just can't play nicely (even when asked politely to do so) I feel there needs to be a system of checks and balances.
I'm sorry, but personal attacks cannot be allowed to continue. Some wonderful contributors to this site have already been run off because of them, not to mention countless newbies who probably saw them and ran the other direction. This forum cannot fulfill its primary purpose of helping people when a) regulars are being run off, b) new people are being run off, and c) people are afraid to post. It's just ludicrous.
If anyone can think of a way to hold people accountable for their actions without a moderator, that would be fine with me. I just don't see any other way.
I know Johnny is technically a moderator, but I have never once seen him intervene. He's incredibly busy, and just doesn't have time to step in when adults act like children. We need someone who can. I WISH we could all play nicely, but some people apparently can't.
I agree that the strength of this forum is its freedom. However, since it has been proven over the last couple of weeks that people just can't play nicely (even when asked politely to do so) I feel there needs to be a system of checks and balances.
I'm sorry, but personal attacks cannot be allowed to continue. Some wonderful contributors to this site have already been run off because of them, not to mention countless newbies who probably saw them and ran the other direction. This forum cannot fulfill its primary purpose of helping people when a) regulars are being run off, b) new people are being run off, and c) people are afraid to post. It's just ludicrous.
If anyone can think of a way to hold people accountable for their actions without a moderator, that would be fine with me. I just don't see any other way.
I know Johnny is technically a moderator, but I have never once seen him intervene. He's incredibly busy, and just doesn't have time to step in when adults act like children. We need someone who can. I WISH we could all play nicely, but some people apparently can't.
Machine: M-Series Auto
Mask: Headrest
No humidifier
On the hose since 2005.
Mask: Headrest
No humidifier
On the hose since 2005.