Mask carbon dioxide levels - toxicity

chunkyfrog · Post by **chunkyfrog** » Tue May 06, 2014 7:28 pm

I commend your enthusiasm, and I feel that your curious mind will help you with maintaining therapy;
even if it adds little new knowledge to the general pool--but who knows? You could hit on something important.
This just probably isn't it.

Goofproof · Post by **Goofproof** » Tue May 06, 2014 7:41 pm

Where is the manufacturer and the FDA hiding the bodies of the xpap users tgey kill with poor CO2 venting. For me if I used a pressure of 5cm, I'd be dead, I might as will put a plastic bag over my head. Jim

JDS74 · Post by **JDS74** » Tue May 06, 2014 7:45 pm

BTW I think this is the user manual for the CO2 measuring device being ueds.
http://www.co2meters.com/Documentation/ ... Sensor.pdf
It appears to be a very interesting device.

jencat824 · Post by **jencat824** » Tue May 06, 2014 7:57 pm

miltf,

I would suggest you increase your pressure from 5 to 6 & repeat your CO2 test. I would feel suffocated at 5cm and such a low pressure could be part of why you feel bad. I also don't think the CO2 is the real problem, if this were the case, as mentioned the mask manufacturing companies would have lawsuits coming out their ears by now.

Why not post some of your data here & see if our forum members can identify why you are feeling bad. Maybe you have undetected leaks, some untreated OSA due to such a low pressure or other anomaly our data experts might be able to help you with.

You have come to the right place for help, it just doesn't seem your theory is plausible. That said, I will try to keep an open mind. Also, welcome to the forum.

Jen

TangledHose · Post by **TangledHose** » Tue May 06, 2014 8:05 pm

Todzo wrote:It is interesting to see how if issues which deal with air hunger and carbon dioxide maintenance come up here the shills, trolls, and their sock puppets also appear. Sometimes you can tell them because they tend to use very gross avatars.

that's a very mature and productive post Todzo.......especially considering that in essence I was making a very similar point as you to the OP's post.

Therapist · Post by **Therapist** » Tue May 06, 2014 8:35 pm

miltf wrote: The S9 is set at 5 cm constant pressure.

I share the concern of a couple others about this low pressure. 5 cm would make me feel choked for air even before I fall asleep.

Do you have software with your CPAP and do you keep up with the detail reports about events and leak?

Wulfman... · Post by **Wulfman...** » Tue May 06, 2014 9:04 pm

miltf wrote:Hi,
This is my first post here. I am a relatively new CPAP user (6 months). Initially, I found that the silicone in most masks gave me nasal congestion, so I switched to Sleepweaver masks which are cloth. No congestion, but I sometimes had a shortness of breath feeling. I thought maybe the fixed vent rate on the mask was too low as it felt like my expired breath was not leaving the mask before I took a new breath. Well, long story short, the company and I had an email exchange which remains unresolved for me and I went ahead and measured the CO2 in the mask using a very sensitive and rapid sensor called a SprintIR (details upon request).

The measured CO2 in the mask air space ranges from 2-3.3% during use (air is less than 0.1%, exhaled breath is 3-5%). The US OSHA sets a limit on CO2 of 1% (time weighted average) and says that higher levels can lead to discomfort (!), headache, lethargy, etc. Levels above 3% are not allowed for any length of time. I made some holes in the mask wall to increase the vent rate and decrease the CO2 and, sure enough, my nights are far more comfortable. My ResMed S9 Autoset seems to adjust very well to this change and for the most part, this problem is solved for me.

However, I am still concerned about other users of CPAP. I have measured the two other masks I happened to have, a Respironics Profile Lite (2-3%) and a ResMed Swift FX (1.5-2.5%) and both of these have high CO2 levels. My guess is that most masks are not designed to achieve adequate venting of CO2, partly because of inadequate vent rate but mostly because of vent placement. I think this must contribute to the low compliance rate for CPAP among those who are prescribed this technology. After all, if you are feeling discomfort, headache and lethargy, you might as well just stick with OSA.

I'm putting this information out on this forum because I don't know what else to do with it. I'll be interested to hear your thoughts.

Milt

From the user manual for the Profile Lite:

Warning:
This warning applies to most CPAP devices. At low CPAP pressures, the air flow through the exhalation port
may not be enough to clear all of the exhaled gas (CO2) from the mask. You may breathe in some of the air that
you have exhaled. Do not block or otherwise try to seal the vent holes on the exhalation port.

From the user manual for the Swift FX:

Warning:
As with all masks, some rebreathing may occur at low CPAP pressures.

I think the definition of "LOW" is conditional upon each individual's breathing. But, I think 4 - 6 is definitely in the "low" category for nearly everyone.

Den

.

kona0197 · Post by **kona0197** » Wed May 07, 2014 12:43 am

Start with a pressure of 10 like I do every night then see if you have any CO2 in the mask. I doubt you will find any.

49er · Post by **49er** » Wed May 07, 2014 3:07 am

Todzo wrote:It is interesting to see how if issues which deal with air hunger and carbon dioxide maintenance come up here the shills, trolls, and their sock puppets also appear. Sometimes you can tell them because they tend to use very gross avatars.

So anyone who disagrees with you is a shill, troll, or sock puppet? Hmm.

And claiming that folks who use gross avatars fit the above description makes about as much sense as my claiming that I can paint as well as Monet.

49er

Sludge · Post by **Sludge** » Wed May 07, 2014 3:37 am

49er wrote:
Todzo wrote:It is interesting to see how if issues which deal with air hunger and carbon dioxide maintenance come up here the shills, trolls, and their sock puppets also appear. Sometimes you can tell them because they tend to use very gross avatars.
So anyone who disagrees with you is a shill, troll, or sock puppet? Hmm.

And claiming that folks who use gross avatars fit the above description makes about as much sense as my claiming that I can paint as well as Monet.

49er

And wasn't Tuesday the day that he wasn't supposed to be an asshole?

Is just one day too much to ask?

Sludge · Post by **Sludge** » Wed May 07, 2014 4:12 am

Wulfman... wrote:Another discussion I was also part of about 7 years ago had to do with certain masks also not sufficiently clearing CO2.

Oh right, back in day:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11458&p=174261&hili ... ro#p174261

http://erj.ersjournals.com/content/23/1 ... e90504ad98

And before that, back in the frequie days, when the fad was trying to increase FICO2 levels.

I tell ya, if you stand in one spot long enough, what goes around...

Sheriff Buford · Post by **Sheriff Buford** » Wed May 07, 2014 4:50 am

Todzo wrote:Sometimes you can tell them because they tend to use very gross avatars.

Hey... hey.... look at my mug.... tell me its gross....

Sludge · Post by **Sludge** » Wed May 07, 2014 5:33 am

Todzo wrote:Sometimes you can tell them because they tend to use very gross avatars.

Ain't that the truth:

Todzo · Post by **Todzo** » Wed May 07, 2014 6:21 am

i would call the picture a lie but then it would be changed

much of what shills trolls and sockpuppets do is to manipulate

gross avatars are simply a part of that

Todzo · Post by **Todzo** » Wed May 07, 2014 6:23 am

Carbon dioxide maintenance is a very real issue with CPAP use however. It is simply that the volume of the mask is too small to matter.

Todzo wrote:The actual volumes inside the mask are low so you will be rebreathing very little additional air (keep in mind that we do not totally purge our systems and do rebreath some air as part of normal healthy breathing). And indeed a more common problem with CPAP use is carbon dioxide maintenance so some have come up with ways to help this which include enhancing the rebreathing space[1] or adding carbon dioxide at critical phases in the breathing process[2].

If the mask vent is working properly I would not worrry about it.

[1]: Gilmartin G, McGeehan B, Vigneault K, Daly RW, Manento M, Weiss JW, Thomas RJ.
Treatment of positive airway pressure treatment-associated respiratory instability with enhanced expiratory rebreathing space (EERS).
Source: J Clin Sleep Med. 2010 Dec 15;6(6):529-38. Division of Pulmonary, Critical Care and Sleep Medicine, Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, Boston, MA, USA.
Link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21206741

[2]: Dynamic CO2 therapy in periodic breathing: a modeling study to determine optimal timing and dosage regimes
Yoseph Mebrate, Keith Willson, Charlotte H. Manisty, Resham Baruah, Jamil Mayet, Alun D. Hughes, Kim H. Parker and Darrel P. Francis
J Appl Physiol 107:696-706, 2009. First published 23 July 2009; doi: 10.1152/japplphysiol.90308.2008
Link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19628721

Mask carbon dioxide levels - toxicity

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Mask

Additional Comments: Pressure 8 - 12. Without CPAP I would be unhealthy.