Over two weeks on CPAP and its getting worse

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
BigTex
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Over two weeks on CPAP and its getting worse

Post by BigTex » Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:57 am

I am on my third mask a Mirage Quattro.
PIcked it up yesterday.

Made no difference.
After two hours I woke up. Checked the AHI and it was 25.
I just took off the mask, no use continuing with that result.
I need some sleep.

Here is where I am at.
I have no problems falling a sleep with the mask on.
I can't find any leaks while a wake, even when I turn to the side.

Obviously its leaking, the numbers show that.

My first mask was a nasal mask with a chinstrap.
I was pretty miserable with that mask since I am a mouth breather.
The leaks wasnt any better with that mask but the AHI was much lower.
I would wake up several times with that mask too.

The DME would not download the data and look at it, "it wasnt time yet"
Called the doctor and was told by someone that "it wasnt time yet".
I insisted that they talk to the doctor.

At this time I am not near to be compliant.
I really dont get this. If I dont get this working I will not be compliant and insurance will not pay.
Why so much resistant in taking a look?

Not sure where to go from here, its not working.
I am worse off today then before I got the cpap when it comes to lack of sleep.
I would love to take a few days off the mask and just get some sleep but that will not work towards compliance.

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Last night.
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DLB
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Re: Over two weeks on CPAP and its getting worse

Post by DLB » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:13 am

Hang in there Big Tex! Good news is that when your not leaking, the therapy is working according to the data you posted. Few if any events until your mask starts leaking. You just need to work the leak issue out. Unfortunately this can take time and experimentation.

For me, I couldn't handle full face masks or nasal masks very well. I went to a nasal pillow mask and never looked back. I haven't updated my signature. I'm currently using a Resmed Nasal Pillow mask and it is great for me.

Good Luck!
DLB

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Pugsy
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Re: Over two weeks on CPAP and its getting worse

Post by Pugsy » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:14 am

To help satisfy compliance requirements while you get masks/leaks/etc sorted out so that you have that burden lifted just use the machine while you are awake and watching TV or reading.
You have to use it though...just turning it on won't be enough.

Some people find that with a full face mask that they need a bit more pressure to adequately deal with the events than they did with a nasal pillow mask. So you might keep that in mind

Are you sleeping on your back or on your side? Or both? Sometimes people have more events on their back or even need more pressure when on their back. I think it was Rooster that needed 18 cm when he slept on his back and only 9 cm when on his side..guess what he trained himself to do?

Were you awake with a leak when this large cluster is shown or do you think the events may have awakened you? If you were awake the machine scores all kinds of things that aren't real so we can't even trust the results.

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robysue
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Re: Over two weeks on CPAP and its getting worse

Post by robysue » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:08 pm

BigTex,

Instead of trying to get the DME or doc's office to look at the data, I'd suggest a very different tactic.

Call them back and focus the conversation on the following points in more or less this order:

1) You are feeling MUCH WORSE while sleeping with the mask; indeed you do not feel as though you are getting enough sleep and you know you are taking the mask off at night just so you can get some sleep Point out that your daytime functioning is deteriorating as well.

2) You do not have trouble falling asleep with the mask on. And when you put the mask on at night, you can't find any leaks. But you ARE having trouble staying asleep with the mask on. You know you get frustrated after waking up and you are often simply taking the mask off due to the frustration of NOT SLEEPING. If you can pinpoint what is waking you up, tell them that too: Saying something like:
  • "I wake up a couple of hours after going to sleep and when I wake up, I am very uncomfortable due to <fill in the reasons you are so uncomfortable> and because of that I cannot relax enough to get back to sleep until after I take the mask off."
should get their attention.

3) You know you need to make this work and you want to make it work, but that at this point you are VERY WORRIED about the compliance data because you KNOW you are not compliant. But be brutally honest and tell them directly what you've written here:
I am worse off today then before I got the cpap when it comes to lack of sleep. I would love to take a few days off the mask and just get some sleep but that will not work towards compliance.
At this time I am not near to be compliant. I really dont get this. If I dont get this working I will not be compliant and insurance will not pay.
In other words, focus the conversation on the issues of compliance and your inability to sleep with the machine since these are the things that the DME and the doc are interested in: Both the doc and the DME will care when they hear you say that you just cannot seem to get past two hours of sleep with the mask before you get to the point where you rip it off your face and just return to sleep without it on at all.

So, for now, focus the conversation on getting some help with getting over the hump of compliance---i.e. focus on getting them to understand that you want and need help in figuring out how to stay asleep with the mask on.

And when the doc or DME mentions that "maybe you are leaking"---that's when to first reiterate that you can find no leaks when you first go to sleep and gently suggest that you wonder if the data on the card might show something about the leaks. (Yes, I'm suggesting acting dumb. Sometimes it works.) Once you trick them into downloading the data in an effort to disabuse you of your "notion" that "leaks aren't the issue", they'll see both the leak data and the over high AHI. And maybe then the doc and the DME will be of more use to you.

And for what it's worth, here's my take on your leak data: If the DME or doc looked at that leak data, they'd likely conclude that leaks are not that big of an issue.

Here's why: The detailed leak line data that you posted stays well below the Resmed Red Line at 24 L/min. The summary data for the 95% leak rate and the median leak rate also indicate that your leaks stay well below the Red Line for 95% of the night and and are trivial for at least 50% of the night. The importance of the Resmed Red Line is this: The Resmed engineers believe the S9 is quite capable of compensating for leaks that are less than 24 L/min without much problem and they are only seriously worried about the impact of leaks greater than or equal to 24 L/min when they last at least 30% of the total night. So your leaks are not likely affecting the quality of your treatment, which means that the nasty clusters that are leading to AHIs > 20 are not something that can be written off to "bad data because of high leaks."

Now, that's not to say that leaks are not an issue: If the leaks are causing you to wake up OR if they are increasing your discomfort through such things as dry eyes or a painfully dry mouth when you wake up, then they're big enough to need to be worked on. Because anything that adversely affects your nighttime comfort is an issue.


I'll also point out that there is an alternate approach to this conundrum that others will bring up: If you are comfortable with the idea, you could just increase your pressure setting by a bit (.5cm to 1cm) to see if that busts up those clusters without making you even more uncomfortable.

And finally I'll also point this out: Getting comfortable with sleeping with the equipment requires patience and perseverance. It helps, of course, to have "good data" when you're struggling to make things work. But speaking from far to much personal experience, it's very possible to have fantastic numbers on paper and still feel like something the cat dragged in. So my own advice is work hard on the things you can do to increase your comfort level with sleeping with the machine NOW and worry about the AHI numbers being high AFTER you are sleeping more WITH the machine than without the machine. After all for every hour you sleep without the mask, you ARE subjecting your body to your untreated OSA. And just how bad was your OSA on your diagnostic sleep study? If it was on the high side of Moderate or if it was SEVERE, then you're experiencing more apneas/hypopneas WITHOUT the machine than you are during your worst clusters with the machine.

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Mary Z
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Re: Over two weeks on CPAP and its getting worse

Post by Mary Z » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:36 pm

You have gotten good advice and I would go with robysue's suggestions.

My advice is to hang in there, it is common to have these problems in the beginning, or even later on in therapy. Keep writing to the forum for support. Less than 3 weeks, preferably at least a month is preferred by my doctor to evaluate data. I have heard of people getting extension on compliance deadlines due to difficulties like yours. The suggestion to use the machine during the day to supplement your hours is a good one.
I wish you the best of luck and success. Try NOT to do what I do and become overly stressed with your situation.

One lesson I seem to never learn is to keep a record of every phone call, every person, time and date that you talk to during this process. Believe me this can become invaluable as there are so many different people with different knowledge levels in an office.
Much of the information you get is primarily "a guess". Please do this.

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BigTex
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Re: Over two weeks on CPAP and its getting worse

Post by BigTex » Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:02 pm

Just got back from the doctor.
At first they did not want to see me since its not been 30 days but I insisted.
Told them that this is not working and I want them to take a look at the data so I can be compliant.
Also, told them that why should I suffer if this is not working.

Brought the machine.
They downloaded the data.
Told me that the leaks are not that bad so the pressure should probably be increased.
The doctor was not in so I was told he would call me then I could bring it back tomorrow for the adjustment.
I told them I will do the adjustment myself and I was told that its illegal for me to do so.
I made it clear I will adjust it with or without there help so just have the doctor call me.

I am getting really frustrated with this nonsense.

the process is wrong and its too much conflict of interest.
The doctor prescribe the study.
The doctor does the study in house.
The doctor prescribes the cpap.
the doctor sells the equipment.
if you dont have cpaptalk.com you will have to suffer with this until 30 days when you have your follow up.
If you got lucky and it worked you are good, if did not work then you have an insurance problem.
Make very little sense.

I told them I have taken an active roll long time ago in my own health.
So if they dont want to be a part of my health team I will find someone that will.

If the doctor does not call tonight I will up the pressure myself.

We will see how this goes...

josh73
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Re: Over two weeks on CPAP and its getting worse

Post by josh73 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:25 pm

if you dont have cpaptalk.com you will have to suffer with this until 30 days when you have your follow up.

Or, if you're like me, you get no follow up whatsoever. Without this forum, i'd be completely in the dark. good luck going forward man...

josh

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Corkster52
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Re: Over two weeks on CPAP and its getting worse

Post by Corkster52 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:00 pm

Kind of wonder about the "illegal" part. Not sure, but I have had mine just over 30 days and I wonder if the DME will read me the riot act when he notices that I have made some slight "adjustments" since the day I picked it up?

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xenablue
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Re: Over two weeks on CPAP and its getting worse

Post by xenablue » Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:17 pm

Sorry you're having all these problems BigTex, and very bad that your Dr. has a finger in all pieces of the pie concerning your OSA. If you can't go to a different DME, it sure makes it a bit tougher for you.

Good to see you put your foot down though and I hope they start to take you seriously. It most certainly is NOT illegal to do whatever the hell you want with your equipment and settings. Not necessarily recommended unless you're knowledgeable about what you're doing, but not illegal.

I loved robysue's advice and often use the 'dumb' act to get what I want - it really does work wonders as you're not being at confrontational, so they don't know what hit them until they're putty in your hands LOL. Going in like a bulldozer usually makes them defensive right away.

Cheers,
xena

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Pugsy
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Re: Over two weeks on CPAP and its getting worse

Post by Pugsy » Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:21 pm

Corkster52 wrote:Kind of wonder about the "illegal" part. Not sure, but I have had mine just over 30 days and I wonder if the DME will read me the riot act when he notices that I have made some slight "adjustments" since the day I picked it up?
DME staff cannot change the settings without a physician's order because it is treated like a prescription.
I have yet to see it official in writing somewhere that the patient can't do whatever he wants with the machine's settings.
I figure that "illegal" activity goes right along with the hogwash I got about it being against a federal law for the patient to have the software in their possession and this was back when both ResMed and Respironics openly sold the software to the patient.

Your DME may or may not even notice the "adjustments" you made. Mostly that 30 day thing is for compliance check to make sure you used the machine the required number of days/hours so that insurance will pay. If they do notice and squawk..in one ear and out the other. Nothing else they can do about it.

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azpilgrims
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Re: Over two weeks on CPAP and its getting worse

Post by azpilgrims » Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:37 pm

I am in the same boat, been on my machine for two weeks and have been through several masks. I too finally settled on a Mirage Quattro and this does seem to leak a lot less than the others I have tried. My advice to you is the same thing I am forcing myself to do every night, stick with it, if you wake up which I do 4 to 5 times a night - I force myself to put the mask back on and use it even though I would sleep better without it. I figure I have had sleep apnea a long time and it will take time for me and you to get used to it. I saw my Doctor two weeks in today and had him review the data, he agreed to change my pressure from 7-14 to 10-16 as I am on an auto machine. I faxed my prescription over to my DME and told them I knew how to make the changes, they were against it and I said well if it must be done by you, please drive to my house and change it.

Hang in there as we are both struggling with the same thing.

CpapPorkchop
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Re: Over two weeks on CPAP and its getting worse

Post by CpapPorkchop » Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:24 pm

BigTex I'm with ya!! Hang in there. I got my machine two weeks ago and have not been able to sleep with it all night. The longest I have gone is 4 hours. I am a mouth breather so i am trying to learn to breath threw my nose at night instead of my mouth. Bottom line is it is going to take a while for me too. But before I started treatment I was always tired and if i quit now i will just be going back to that life. I figure it like a cold, It gets worse before it gets better. At first i could not even sleep with the mask on but now i am able to, I just have to get used to it for longer periods of time i guess. Again hang in the and best of luck to you.

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macewa
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Re: Over two weeks on CPAP and its getting worse

Post by macewa » Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:33 pm

I had problems with masks - and my pressure were so high, I leaked all the time. I've changed a lot of things and I've changed to a FitLife Full Face Mask. Some people won't like it, but I absolutely love it. Yesterday morning I woke up and thought I had forgotten to put the mask on. After all the nose pain I've had with other masks, this one is a joy. True, it has leaks, but my DME says the company is aware and an updated mask is coming out where this will have been addressed. My only complaint is that when my nose itches, I can't scratch it. LOL I was close to losing my machine due to non-compiance because of allergy realted problems and a nose that burned so bad, I couldn'[t even breathe regular air without pai But my DME went to work for me and the NEW doctor wrote the note and she went to bat for me, getting me an extension of time. So, talk with your DME. Let them know how important it is for you to get this working right and that you want to get well. Bet someone will come to bat for you.
BigTex wrote:I am on my third mask a Mirage Quattro.
PIcked it up yesterday.

Made no difference.
After two hours I woke up. Checked the AHI and it was 25.
I just took off the mask, no use continuing with that result.
I need some sleep.

Here is where I am at.
I have no problems falling a sleep with the mask on.
I can't find any leaks while a wake, even when I turn to the side.

Obviously its leaking, the numbers show that.

My first mask was a nasal mask with a chinstrap.
I was pretty miserable with that mask since I am a mouth breather.
The leaks wasnt any better with that mask but the AHI was much lower.
I would wake up several times with that mask too.

The DME would not download the data and look at it, "it wasnt time yet"
Called the doctor and was told by someone that "it wasnt time yet".
I insisted that they talk to the doctor.

At this time I am not near to be compliant.
I really dont get this. If I dont get this working I will not be compliant and insurance will not pay.
Why so much resistant in taking a look?

Not sure where to go from here, its not working.
I am worse off today then before I got the cpap when it comes to lack of sleep.
I would love to take a few days off the mask and just get some sleep but that will not work towards compliance.

Image

Last night.
Image

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BigTex
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Re: Over two weeks on CPAP and its getting worse

Post by BigTex » Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:59 am

The doc called yesterday and told me to up the pressure to 10.

Last night I woke up a few times but I kept the mask on.
I think it was the longest night with the mask, less then 6 hours but still.

AHI was 27 so that did not change with the pressure change.

I slept on my back most of the night so that was an improvement too.

Still pretty frustrating waking up dead tired knowing if I stop using the mask I will feel better.

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DLB
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Re: Over two weeks on CPAP and its getting worse

Post by DLB » Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:10 am

BigTex,

Good job making it through the night! Keep at it!

Maybe a little more pressure will help some more. I have an auto and it regularly needs to go 4 to 6 cm higher than my prescription pressure to keep my airway open.

Good luck!
DLB

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