OT:Good Calories, Bad Calories....

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-SWS
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Re: OT:Good Calories, Bad Calories....

Post by -SWS » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:32 pm

Janknitz wrote: BTW, I regularly eat lots of whole eggs, use heavy whipping cream in my coffee and for "desserts", add in and cook with a lot of butter and coconut oil, olive oil, plus some chicken fat (schmaltz) and beef fat (tallow). I eat fatty fish (and supplement with fish oil), limited nuts and nut butters. I aim for 75% of my calories every day from FAT. Any guesses what my cholesterol numbers are? Excellent--my triglycerides are only 71, HDL is 79. Looking at the ratios, I have a very low risk for cardiovascular disease, despite the fact that I'm "pre-diabetic".

How's your cholesterol?
I can't find my exact numbers, but my cholesterol is marginally high---yet with good ratios. And neither of my two diet styles--- the traditional food pyramid diet versus eat-as-you-damn-well-please--- impact my cholesterol numbers one way or the other. I'm pre-diabetic as well. I'd be interested in seeing what a primal diet does for my blood work.
Janknitz wrote: I think this video sums it up nicely. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vr-c8GeT34 ("How Bad Science and Big Business Created the Obesity Epidemic").It's about an hour long and the real meat (no pun intended) is in the last few minutes, but watch the entire thing so that you really understand the entire message.
Okay, that video is my next stop. Thanks!

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Re: OT:Good Calories, Bad Calories....

Post by -SWS » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:06 pm

Janknitz wrote: I think this video sums it up nicely. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vr-c8GeT34 ("How Bad Science and Big Business Created the Obesity Epidemic").It's about an hour long and the real meat (no pun intended) is in the last few minutes, but watch the entire thing so that you really understand the entire message.
That was an excellent presentation. I'd like to highlight it again and recommend the video. Thanks.

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Re: OT:Good Calories, Bad Calories....

Post by hades161 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:44 pm

My take on the Obesity Epidemic.

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Re: OT:Good Calories, Bad Calories....

Post by VikingGnome » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:53 pm

My father was a lacto-ovo vegetarian his entire adult life but limited eggs. He didn't eat any kind of flesh food. But he developed T2 diabetes at age 55 and died at age 72 with severe coronary artery disease. So RED MEAT didn't clog his arteries. He loved cheese, sweets, potatoes, pasta, all kinds of starches). Even on insulin, he cheated ALL the time. We found candy wrappers under his car seat after he died and a stash of goodies in his bedroom closet.

I think Red Meat has taken the fall for all the other bad stuff we Americans eat.

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Re: OT:Good Calories, Bad Calories....

Post by ThirdOutOfFive » Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:14 pm

As far as I am concerned, if it tastes good, someone will tell me it's bad calories. If it tastes terrible, I can eat as much as I want -- exactly none!

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Re: OT:Good Calories, Bad Calories....

Post by Janknitz » Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:01 pm

As far as I am concerned, if it tastes good, someone will tell me it's bad calories. If it tastes terrible, I can eat as much as I want -- exactly none
Stephen Guyenet's "food reward" theory fits right in--he says we eat more because it tastes good. Well, duh! But I love the low carb food I'm eating (who wouldn't love whipping cream, butter on everything, tasty fatty pieces of meat?), and yet, I'm slimming down. Gary Taubes says its the effect of what you eat has on your body that matters most.

No more boneless, skinless dried out chicken breasts for me!
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Re: OT:Good Calories, Bad Calories....

Post by -SWS » Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:21 am

I'm nearly midway through the book Good Calories, Bad Calories that ozij recommended. It's a good read. It's not a recreational read by any means. But it's a highly informative read, and potentially lifesaving. It's undeniably an important read for many people who have failed to control cholesterol or obesity using the food pyramid.

I'd like to endeavor answering my own question in red text below:
BTW, has anyone here who advocates a low carb diet stumbled across ANY studies they think are valid support of the lipid theory or the traditional food pyramid? Are they ALL bad science?
My take is the USDA food pyramid is the result of bad science. First a side-note that wrong scientific conclusions do not make for bad science. On the contrary, the best scientists make wrong scientific conclusions all the time. It's their job to literally push the envelope of human understanding by extending ingenious, creative hypotheses. So scientists extend their tentative conclusions in the form of hypotheses. Most hypotheses, in the big picture of science, are expected to be wrong. Scientists expect this. So they collectively work very hard trying to overturn each hypothesis rather than drawing conclusions without conclusive proof. At least that's the way the scientific method is supposed to work. But scientists are human, and humans are both political and inherently biased.

Enter the USDA recommended food pyramid. It clearly doesn't work for many people. Scientists advocating primal dieting suspect the food pyramid, high on carbohydrates and low on fat, fails the very design/evolution of human metabolism. These objecting scientists in particular think the USDA recommended food pyramid is flat-out wrong. And they might be right.

If the USDA food pyramid is wrong, that alone doesn't make it bad science. After all, most scientific hypotheses are expected to be wrong. Rather, what makes the USDA food pyramid bad science is that as a health recommendation it is largely the result of one scientist, with an indomitable will, who utilized the political arena. Despite plenty of peer-review objection in the scientific community, the USDA recommended food pyramid is largely the result of well-intended politicians listening to hypothesizing scientist, Ancel Keys.

Ancel Keys hadn't yet proved his scientific hypotheses to the satisfaction of peer review or the scientific method. Rather, Keys knew he was right, so he took a short cut. He pushed his unproven dietary hypotheses to McGovern's committee and then the media. That controversy, and the USDA recommended food pyramid, live on to this day. When we unquestioningly eat according to the USDA recommended food pyramid, we are not necessarily eating what the scientific method might have recommended had the scientific community been allowed to perform its collective duty--- without the political sidestepping. Rather, we are eating what a group of well-intended politicians interpreted as wisdom from influential Ancel Keys and supporters of his dietary hypotheses.

Well, if anyone is struggling with diet-related health issues, despite adherance to the USDA recommended food pyramid, consider the possibility that those recommendations might be wrong for your body type. At the very least Good Calories, Bad Calories offers some interesting insight regarding the political process within science----and a glimpse of the scientific method being short-circuited by a well-intended comittee of national politicians. I thank ozij for recommending the book!

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Re: OT:Good Calories, Bad Calories....

Post by ozij » Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:02 am

And I want to thank DreamStalker - a wonderful contibutor to this community, who was the first person who made me aware of the bad science in nutrition, and recommended the book.

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Re: OT:Good Calories, Bad Calories....

Post by jnk » Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:52 am

Is the following assessment still valid, then?:

http://content.onlinejacc.org/cgi/conte ... /45/9/1379

I, too, miss DreamStalker. Deeply. And feel some personal guilt regarding his absence.

I respect the choice to call this "OT." However, in my case, for me personally, this thread is as on-topic as anything can be for this board, insofar as I consider it to be an online health community of sorts. Thank you, -SWS.

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Re: OT:Good Calories, Bad Calories....

Post by Sleep2Die4 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:15 am

-SWS wrote:...Red Calories, White Calories. Dr. Taubes, meet Dr. Seuss.

Primal diet experts and low-carb diet experts, PLEASE weigh in here. Would experts who advocate your diet dispute these findings?
http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/12/health/re ... ?hpt=hp_c2

Thanks in advance for enlightening those of us who are non-experts. My ever-so-slight arteriosclerosis and I look forward to your comments.
Gosh, I like reading in this forum and when I am away for a few days it feels like I missed a lot.

I no longer have to worry about dying young but this caught my eye:
Los Angeles Times

March 12, 2012, 4:28 p.m.

Eating red meat — any amount and any type — appears to significantly increase the risk of premature death, according to a long-range study that examined the eating habits and health of more than 110,000 adults for more than 20 years.

http://www.latimes.com/health/la-he-red ... 5423.story
What do you think?



Good luck with eating healthy -SWS.

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Re: OT:Good Calories, Bad Calories....

Post by ozij » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:33 am

Jeff,
You really have to read Taubes' 500 page book, and watch Naughton's video.
Then ask yourself if you dare trust your health to this type of "review".


Table 2 purporting to report the pros and cons of low carb diets is based on references 7-10.
Here they are:
7. Atkins RC. Dr. Atkins’ New Diet RevolutionNew York, NY: Avon Books; 1998.
8. St. Jeor ST, Howard BV, Prewitt TE, et al. Dietary protein and weight reductiona statement for healthcare professionals from the Nutrition Committee of the Council on Nutrition, Physical Activity, and Metabolism of the American Heart Association. Circulation 2001;104:1869-1874.[Abstract/Free Full Text]
9. Bonow RO, Eckel RH. Diet, obesity, and cardiovascular risk N Engl J Med 2003;348:2057-2058.[CrossRef][Web of Science][Medline]
10. Bravata DM, Sander L, Huang J, et al. Efficacy and safety of low-carbohydrate dietsa systematic review. JAMA 2003;289:1837-1850.[Abstract/Free Full Text]


Here on the other hand is a bunch of randomized control studies of low carb diets.
http://www.dietdoctor.com/weight-loss-t ... he-science

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Re: OT:Good Calories, Bad Calories....

Post by chunkyfrog » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:38 am

The more vegans there are--the more red meat for the rest of us!

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Re: OT:Good Calories, Bad Calories....

Post by JeffH » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:42 am

ozij wrote:And I want to thank DreamStalker - a wonderful contibutor to this community, who was the first person who made me aware of the bad science in nutrition, and recommended the book.
DreamStalker saved my life by doing the same. Was over 300lbs when I asked him a few questions. He recommended Dr. Bernstien's book as well as Mark Sisson's Primal Blue Print. I read both and at first ONLY started trying to really control my blood suger (in that I'm diabetic) Guess what a side effect was....weight loss. Today I'm a much healthier 214lbs.

JeffH

So were ever you are, thanks from the bottom of my heart DreamStalker.

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Re: OT:Good Calories, Bad Calories....

Post by jnk » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:02 pm

ozij wrote: . . . a bunch of randomized control studies of low carb diets.
http://www.dietdoctor.com/weight-loss-t ... he-science
That link says:
Many of the studies are of six months or one year duration, one of them (Shai et al) is two years long.
Which reminded me of the statements in the assessment:
"Four randomized, controlled clinical trials have compared low-carbohydrate diets with low-fat diets. Although the trials differed in design, all found an average of 4 to 6 kg greater weight loss in the low-carbohydrate group at six months. However, the two studies followed to one year showed no significant weight difference. . . . Although there is no consensus on what appropriate attrition rates for clinical trials of diets should be, attrition rates of 24% to 39% point to the difficulty of following a low-carbohydrate diet over time. . . . Low-carbohydrate diets may increase HDL cholesterol, decrease triglyceride levels, and improve glycemic control, but there appears to be no significant difference in weight loss compared with a low-fat diet at one year. Because the longest trial extends to one year with relatively few subjects, more studies are required to assess the efficacy of a low-carbohydrate diet on long-term weight loss and cardiovascular outcomes."
For me, weight-loss diets need to prove efficacy and overall health for decades before I'm willing to invest in an approach as a lifetime approach to eating.

That said, I am enjoying using myfitnesspal.com, as one poster recommended a while back. Turns out, according to it, that I am eating more fat and protein and fewer carbs than they recommend, and I've been averaging a two-pound a week loss for the three and a half weeks I've been using it to keep track of what I eat.

Also, my primary doc recommends the low-carb approach over other approaches. And he specialized in weight-loss studies before becoming a family doc.

Thanks for the response, ozij. I appreciate it.

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Re: OT:Good Calories, Bad Calories....

Post by ozij » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:56 pm

I've very glad that's your doctor's approach, jnk.
jnk wrote:For me, weight-loss diets need to prove efficacy and overall health for decades before I'm willing to invest in an approach as a lifetime approach to eating.


It's not about weight loss. It's about living a healthy life. And it turns out carbs are unhealthy because of how they are metabolized by the human body, because of the chemical reactions in our bloodstream and cells.

The only reason I decided to eat low carb - and to do it for the rest of my life - is that I discovered the abysmal level of science in the conventional wisdom (US FDA and the like) recommendations. Most of us eat according to some rules - formulated consciously or unconsiously.

If you accept that it's carbs that make your body secrete insulin, and that insulin is what stores fat in your cells (both indisputable metabolic facts), then it's obvious that you can't "go back to carbs" when you've lost weight. Agricultural and industrial society have created humongous amounts of carbs that our bodies were not meant to comsume - and many of us are simply intolerant of them. Carbs are bad for some of us, even worse for others and once you're convinced of that, you're not "on a diet" (Am I on a "cigarrette diet" because I don't smoke? on a "sun diet" because I don't tan myself a deep brown?).

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