PR 460, machine hours higher than blower hours. UPDATE 5-30

[Gary_UT]

After reading about used CPAP machines being sold as new I decided to check mine out.

The total machine hours show as 1618.5, but the blower hours are only 834.6. It is my understanding that clearing the machine data will reset the blower hours but not the machine hours.I have never cleared the machine, my total usage in the encore software matches the blower hours.

There is a sticker on the bottom of the machine that says it is property of the DME. When I asked about the sticker they said it was because I was renting it for the first 3 months. Funny thing is they have never asked me to brimg in the card from the machine to prove compliance for the insurance company. It has no modem or any other way to remote download the data.

I'm beginning to think that someone else put almost 800 hours on the machine, and the DME cleared it and sold it to me as a new one.

If it was as used machine that was cleared and sold as new do I have any recourse after nearly 4 months.

[Pugsy]

I'm beginning to think that someone else put almost 800 hours on the machine, and the DME cleared it and sold it to me as a new one.

If it was as used machine that was cleared and sold as new do I have any recourse after nearly 4 months.

I am thinking you are thinking correctly. They sold you a used machine.
I don't know if you have any recourse or not after this amount of time but you can try. They may just say "oops" and offer a new one (which if you get one you will of course check the run hours)...or they may say "so sorry" and give you a big hassle. Never know till you try though.

You've got a double post/thread going on. Sometimes the forum gremlins do that. You might want to delete the other thread and just stick with one to avoid multiple responses.

[Bama Rambler]

Your logic is good, and I'd definitely approach the DME about it.
If you spent 8 hours a day using the machine for 120 days would only rack up 960 hours.
In order to use 1618 hours you'd have had to run the machine 13.5 hours per day for 120 days.
If you figured 8 hours a day you'd have had to run it for 202 days.
Since most people average about 7 hours a day you'd have to have ran it 231 days or almost 8 months.

[TheDuke]

Several years ago I had a similar experience with a "new machine". I was supplied a Respironics BiPAP Plus as a new replacement for a Sullivan BiLevel that died after maybe 7 years of good service. The Respironics appeared spotlessly new with no dirt or scratches, but when I checked the run-time meter it had a bit over 2000 hours reading which would be about a one years usage. When I protested, the DME got me a genuinely new sealed box machine that I used for about 8 years and now hold in a closet as a backup. The other would have likely been fine, but when we are being charged for a new machine, it should be NEW.

TheDuke

[archangle]

I'm beginning to think that someone else put almost 800 hours on the machine, and the DME cleared it and sold it to me as a new one.

If it was as used machine that was cleared and sold as new do I have any recourse after nearly 4 months.

On insurance, you don't usually buy a CPAP machine. It's rent to own, so why would you expect a new machine?

Did they tell you it's a new machine? Did they write it down somewhere.

If you are using a previously used machine, they SHOULD reset the existing data on the machine. If you look at the data on the machine, you want to see your compliance data, your average AHI, etc. Also, they shouldn't give the previous user's medical data to another patient.

[Gary_UT]

On insurance, you don't usually buy a CPAP machine. It's rent to own, so why would you expect a new machine?

Did they tell you it's a new machine? Did they write it down somewhere.

It was a 3 month rental, then it is mine after proving compliance.

Since they charged full retail it sbould be a new machine. And yes I was told it was a new machine.

[Gary_UT]

Last week I sent a certified letter to the head office of my DME.

I included photos of the display showing the difference between blower hours and machine hours, a copy of my Encore summary showing the hours I have used it, and a photo of all the labels on the machine. Plus a copy of all the paperwork I received when I picked up the machine.

Today I got a call from the DME's local office apologizing for what they called a "mix-up" and an offer to exchange for a new machine.

So I am now the proud owner of a PR 460 with 0.0 machine hours and 0.0 blower hours, both verified by me at the DME's office before I finished the paperwork.

Gary

[knothead]

Last week I sent a certified letter to the head office of my DME.

I included photos of the display showing the difference between blower hours and machine hours, a copy of my Encore summary showing the hours I have used it, and a photo of all the labels on the machine. Plus a copy of all the paperwork I received when I picked up the machine.

Today I got a call from the DME's local office apologizing for what they called a "mix-up" and an offer to exchange for a new machine.

So I am now the proud owner of a PR 460 with 0.0 machine hours and 0.0 blower hours, both verified by me at the DME's office before I finished the paperwork.

Gary

Good for you Gary, don't you just love it when you know something is wrong and sure enough it is and has been corrected(after they were caught) LOL...

[robysue]

the problem is that we have to pick a DME first

if i coudl get approval then i coudl shop DMEs and ensure it was a new machine with the features i want etc

all they have to do is provide the cpt code device as insurance does not require new afaik

It's quite possible to shop DMEs if you are really wanting to shop around. Insurance complicates things a bit: If you want to spend your insurance company's $$$ on your machine, you are limited to the DMEs your insurance company considers as "in-network". And you also have to be willing to tell people, "No, I won't sign that piece of paper authorizing you to send a prescription to a DME that I've never heard of."

Here's the story of how I did shop around to find a DME that would sell me the S9 AutoSet that I decided that I wanted for my first machine.

1) On my diagnostic test I politely refused to sign the paperwork that authorized them to send a script to the DME of their choice as soon as the doc read the test if my apnea turned out to be bad enough for a split test. (It didn't turn out to be that severe). I refused to sign that paperwork because I knew I didn't know anything at all about CPAP, DMEs, or even my insurance coverage for CPAPs. And I wanted to check that stuff out before committing to CPAP therapy.

2) My titration test was scheduled about 3 weeks after my diagnostic test due to a family trip. I spent the time between the two tests educating myself (here and on another forum) about OSA, CPAPs, and DMEs. By the time of my titration test, I knew that I wanted an APAP, or at least a CPAP that recorded full efficacy data. And I also knew most DMEs set most new patients up with bricks. (Since my diagnosis was for plain old moderate OSA, there was no reason to expect the doc would prescribe anything other than CPAP at n-cm.)

3) On my titration test I was again asked to sign a paper authorizing them to send a script to the DME of their choice as soon as the doc read the test. I again politely refused to sign the paperwork. At that point I knew that I still did not know enough about my insurance coverage or which DMEs in my area might be willing to sell me an APAP, but I did knew that I did NOT want to be railroaded into a long term business relationship with a company that I did not choose.

4) After my titration test, I also had to be very firm with the sleep doc's office and repeatedly tell them that I was NOT going to allow them to just fax my script to the DME of their choice. I was also very firm with them that I was in the process of contacting multiple DMEs and that once I found a DME that I liked, I would let the sleep doc's office know where to send the script.

5) I contacted my insurance and found out that they had a very long list of in-network DMEs---so long they were unwilling to send me a copy of the full list; they did send me an abbreviated list. After calling every DME on that list and finding out that they were going to set me up with a brick (yes, I'd already done my homework and knew about brick CPAPs), I started going through the yellow pages and found a small DME that specialized in CPAP equipment (and only CPAP equipment). Much to my pleasure, this DME sets all their new patients up with the patient's choice of the newest model Resmed AutoSet or the newest model PR Auto CPAP, even when the script just calls for CPAP. AND they were in-network. They earned my business and I have continued to recommend this place to anybody in the Buffalo, NY or Rochester, NY areas. The name of the place is CPAPXpress for anybody who is interested.

Once it became clear I was going to be moved to bi-level, I worked with CPAPXpress for about a month in an attempt to find out whether the S9 Vauto was going to be released anytime "soon" or whether I could get an S8 Vauto or whether I should get the PR System One 750 machine that I used for several years. It took a month of digging on my part and theirs to decide that in late 2010, the S9 Vauto was still vaporware with an unknown release date, the S8 Vauto was not what I wanted (it has a proprietary data card and card readers were already getting scarce) and the PR 750 was worth trying.