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JohnMudie
 
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H202, Hydrogen Peroxide as a anti-bacterial agent

Postby JohnMudie on Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:52 am

I need to keep my distilled water bacterial free as I am immuno-compromised. I am currently keeping supplies of distilled water in a fridge following directions of my RT. I am wondering if adding hydrogen peroxide to the distilled water will keep it bacteria free.
Maybe I won't need to empty my humidifier daily if I add some H202 to it.

What concerns me is the damage that the H2O2 might do to the humidifier seals and how effective it is.

Comments and suggestions welcomed

John
PS I am going on a cruise next week and doubt that I will have a fridge to keep the distilled water cold.

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Re: H202, Hydrogen Peroxide as a anti-bacterial agent

Postby gpap on Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:15 am

You should really take this up with your RT or Pulmonologist.

I would worry that if the HP is not completely decomposed, it could react with tissues in the passages or lungs.

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Re: H202, Hydrogen Peroxide as a anti-bacterial agent

Postby HoseCrusher on Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:32 am

John, my first thought was that you can simply add a very small amount of salt to the humidifier water, but I would suggest you check with your doctor before doing that.

The amount would be something like 0.2 grams per liter of water. The salt tends to make the water less agreeable to spores and other things floating in the air. If you try this, use sea salt rather than table salt. 0.2 grams is a couple of very small chunks. You can taste the water to see if you can notice any salt taste. If you do, you put too much in.

Be sure to empty the humidifier each morning and let it dry.

On your cruse, simply bring a fresh bottle of distilled water. Unless the room is kept above 90 F, your water will remain pure over that short period of time at room temperature.

Hydrogen peroxide is great for cleaning, but it is highly unstable. I don't think it would last long enough in the distilled water to be effective.

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Re: H202, Hydrogen Peroxide as a anti-bacterial agent

Postby pitrow on Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:35 am

JohnMudie wrote:PS I am going on a cruise next week and doubt that I will have a fridge to keep the distilled water cold.


Most staterooms on ships have a small fridge in them, they stock them with water and pop and that kind of stuff you have to pay out the nose for. Just ask them to remove them all and put your water in there. On our last cruise we took all the stuff out of the fridge and put it in a dresser drawer and used the fridge for our stuff, then put all theirs back in at the end of the cruise. Just make sure you tell your cabin steward that you're doing that so they don't try to restock it and charge you everyday.

Alternatively, if you end up not having a fridge in your stateroom, talk to the cabin steward and see if they can store your water in a fridge somewhere.

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Re: H202, Hydrogen Peroxide as a anti-bacterial agent

Postby M.D.Hosehead on Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:46 pm

John, I''m not an expert; I'm just sharing how I would look at this problem if I were you.

The first line of defense is washing your mask daily, and your face right before you mask up. If you've spent time in a hospital, there may well be resistant staph on your skin, and therefore also on the mask. Even if the airstream is completely sterile, if it dislodges those bacteria from your face or mask, they will be blown directly into your lungs.

The second line of defense is the HEPA filter on the air outlet, because that's proven technology. HEPA blocks 99.97% of particles >0.3 micrometers dia. (Staph are about 0.6 micrometers.) Even if a few bacteria get into the tank, they won't get past the HEPA. The specs on the filters say that they shouldn't be used on an auto machine with pressure less than 7.

http://www.cpap.com/productpage/In-line-outlet-filter-cpap-bipap.html

So far, we're dealing with known facts. This paragraph is speculative. I wouldn't think peroxide can get from the reservoir into your lungs. Peroxide would kill any stray bacteria that happened to get into the humidifier water, but I have no idea what strength is required, how long it would last, or whether it would react with silicone. I wouldn't rely on peroxide until I researched those questions.

If I were in your situation, immuno-compromised and going on a cruise next week, I would use good mask and skin hygiene, a HEPA outlet filter, distilled water, and disinfect the tank daily with:

http://www.cpap.com/productpage/Control-III-Disinfectant-Germicide-CPAP-Mask-Cleaning-Solution-Cleaner.html

because that's a proven product, doesn't take up much space and there's time to get it before you leave.

It can't hurt to refrigerate the water, but if that's not possible I wouldn't worry, so long as I am doing the other stuff.

Just my thoughts.....
Have a good trip.

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Re: H202, Hydrogen Peroxide as a anti-bacterial agent

Postby Bright Choice on Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:01 pm

I think md hosehead is giving you great advice - both for the filter and the control iii and all of his other comments. I have a background as an RN and I think anything less is a mistake. I say why compromise when your health is at stake!

Bon Voyage!

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Re: H202, Hydrogen Peroxide as a anti-bacterial agent

Postby adipasqu on Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:17 pm

As a chemist talking, H2O2 has a vapor pressure at room temperature and an odor that some might find unpleasant. Now, the typical 3% H2O2 that you would buy at the drugstore and then put into your humidifier tank would be further diluted to the point that you'd probably not smell it at all. However, I would still be concerned about possible respiration irritation from H2O2 vapors, personally.


See:
http://www.ehow.com/way_5833378_hydroge ... ifier.html
viewtopic/t13412/Hydrogen-Peroxide-to-humidifier.html

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Re: H202, Hydrogen Peroxide as a anti-bacterial agent

Postby archangle on Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:46 pm

NO!!!

No peroxide in the humidifier water.

H2O2 is NOT something you want to risk breathing. In some ways it's a nasty chemical, sort of like an acid. It also tends to break down unless you store it correctly.

If you concerned about it, find some way to boil the water on board the ship. Get a small hot plate or something. Or do they have microwaves available? Or get one of those electric immersion heaters like this: http://www.amazon.com/NORPRO-559-Immers ... B000I8VE68 (I can't believe you can still buy these in our modern nanny state.)

Or boil some water at home, pour it while hot into some disposable water bottles and seal them tightly while hot. (Do I have to warn you to not burn yourself? And to watch out that the bottles don't melt?)

Or buy something like this. http://www.amazon.com/STERILE-WATER-IRR ... _sim_hpc_2 USP sterile water for medical purposes in sealed bottles. I assume you can find similar stuff locally.

Don't forget that your distilled water sits for a long time in its container before you buy it. Putting it in the refrigerator after opening doesn't kill any germs, it just slows their growth.

By the way, I don't consider it unhealthy to use H2O2 for rinsing or cleaning equipment. Just rinse it off well before using. Because of the way it works, trace amounts of H202 don't worry me the way traces of TetraChloroFlouroMethylWhatchamacallit do.

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Re: H202, Hydrogen Peroxide as a anti-bacterial agent

Postby M.D.Hosehead on Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:38 pm

Thanks for you input and links, adipasqu.

So some people think it's dangerous, while others gargle with straight 3% H2O2 or spray it up their noses.

One poster says it takes 200 ppm of H2O2 to purify water. My humidifier holds 300 ml. I calculated that, to get 200 ppm of H2O2, I would add 2 ml of 3% hydrogen peroxide to 298 ml of water. It's hard to imagine how that dilution could be dangerous; that's not the same thing as saying it's proven to be safe, though.

I hope someone checks that calculation. Not that I intend to start using it in my tank, but it might be a useful fact to know sometime.

For John, the OP, this is a theoretical discussion; it could turn out to be useful, but right now, it's not safe to rely on if you are immuno-compromised.

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Re: H202, Hydrogen Peroxide as a anti-bacterial agent

Postby HoseCrusher on Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:51 pm

Let's see now...

3% of 1 million is 30000. If you want 200 PPM, you would have to take 1 part 30000 PPM and dilute it with 150 parts water.

Looking at this from a different perspective, 1 ml of 3% H2O2 in 1 liter of water would give you 30 PPM. 1 ml in 300 ml of water would give you 100 PPM, so to get 200 PPM you are correct in using 2 ml of 3% H2O2 in 298 ml of water.

Your math looks correct.

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Re: H202, Hydrogen Peroxide as a anti-bacterial agent

Postby LoQ on Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:29 pm

H2O2 is an unstable compound. For that reason, what you can buy at the pharmacy has stabilizers in it, which are inappropriate for use in your humidifier. The other concern I would have, even if you used some food grade H2O2 which might not have stabilizers in it, is that I would wonder what chemical reactions go on when H2O2 breaks down. One by-product would be H2O. What happens to the oxygen molecules? Probably most are going to combine into O2, which is good for you to breathe. But I would worry that there might be some O3 being generated, and I would not want to be breathing that.

If you are concerned about this, you might consider some kind of UV for disinfecting water. I know you can get inline UV filters for things where the water moves, and there are hand-held wands, but I'm not sure what you could get that would be easy to use in this situation.

M.D.Hosehead made an important point about skin hygiene. You might find this post by an allergist interesting. If you decide to treat your skin with some bleach water, make sure you thoroughly rinse off the skin on your face, especially the area that will be under your mask.

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Re: H202, Hydrogen Peroxide as a anti-bacterial agent

Postby JohnMudie on Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:30 pm

Ok. Sounds like H202 is not the way to go. I have ordered the incline HEPA filters and the mask cleaners. Won't get here in time for the cruise but most probably the Control 3 will.

Thanks for all the support.


John

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Re: H202, Hydrogen Peroxide as a anti-bacterial agent

Postby M.D.Hosehead on Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:09 am

HoseCrusher wrote:
to get 200 PPM you are correct in using 2 ml of 3% H2O2 in 298 ml of water.

Your math looks correct.



Thanks.

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Re: H202, Hydrogen Peroxide as a anti-bacterial agent

Postby Slinky on Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:52 am

How severly immune-suppressed are you? Have you had an organ transplant?

I have Crohn's disease. I've been on the immuno-suppressant, azathioprine (Imuran), since 2003, weight adjusted 1 mg per lb. I also have COPD. I actually have had LESS colds, flus, illnesses for whatever reason since starting Imuran and I have been on xPAP since 2006. I use nothing in my humidifier except distilled water. I generally have to fill my humidifier tank every 3rd day. I use PoliDent Denture cleansing tablets when I clean my tank and a vinegar/water rinse. At home I just top off my tank. When traveling I soak it every day w/the denture tablet, w/just tap water rinse.

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Re: H202, Hydrogen Peroxide as a anti-bacterial agent

Postby archangle on Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:17 pm

JohnMudie wrote:Ok. Sounds like H202 is not the way to go. I have ordered the incline HEPA filters and the mask cleaners. Won't get here in time for the cruise but most probably the Control 3 will.

Thanks for all the support.


John


Are you not going to try boiling the water? It's pretty much certain to work with no chemical additives involved. Get up, clean the mask, empty the tank and boil a cup of water for that night.

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