Welcome to "rainout"

Ric · Post by **Ric** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 12:27 pm

Last night after about 4 hours I awakened to this loud gurgling noise. It was the tube talking. I took off the mask, and BLEAAAAH! it was dripping wet. My first experience with that.

I had read a few posts talking about rainout, not knowing exactly what that was. I searched cpaptalk, keyword gurgling: 35 hits, rainout: 318 hits. Most of which I've read by now. A few lingering questions.

1. does the geometry of where you hang the hose make a difference? Last night is the first time it WASN'T draped up and over the headboard. Will that make the condensate stay down and out of MY end of the tube? Is there a hose configuration that will minimize that problem?

2. Are heated hoses effective? I saw several posts that discussed the usefulness of that, and it appears to change the threshold for rainout. That makes sense. There are too many variables to waste a lot of time experimenting (room temperature, humidity, humidifier settings, AFAP pressure, and on and on....). And plus I'd rather just ASK. I would be tempted to get a heated hose ANYWAY, even if rainout wasn't a problem, just to have nice cozy warm air. Or even a passive hose cover, if nothing else, looks nice and reduces that "medical" look. (especially in the dark). The one complaint that I read (in your posts) was that it was heavier and more difficult to manage. Is that a serious annoyance, enough to keep you awake?

3. Would a longer hose, especially if routed cleverly up and over here and there, and around, reduce rainout? Or would it maybe even make MORE rain, with farther to cool and condense the air. I have done "thought experiments" to try to model the outcome, but I haven't settled the issue. I was hoping someone here might have experience with that. ???

4. Is "rainout" purely a problem with the humidifier? Probably yes. But then I realized the exhaust ports on the several masks that I have been messing with are to-a-one fairly restricted. I can't possibly exhale a full breath without a good fraction of it going back up the tube. (Am I doing something wrong? Again!? maybe so.) That could lead to considerable condensation, given the right conditions, even without the humidifier. It may be a moot point, I'm not giving up the humidifier.

5. Back to the exhaust port question, are we really re-breathing that much air? Wouldn't that make our CO2 go up, and cause a mild respiratory acidosis followed by metabolic compensation and on and on and .... Point being, are we really expected to re-breathe that much air, if any, and is that a problem? And why don't masks have an adjustable exhaust port to compensate for the difference in lung capacity. It seems with a fairly long tube one could end up breathing stale air and suffocate. Actually I have awakened thinking I WAS, especially on a low pressure, like 4 "H2O.

OK, enuf questions for one post, probably too many. And I'm sounding like a complete novice. Well it's true. I really appreciate the depth of knowledge and experience this forum offers, and the willingness to share. THX !

th · Post by th » Fri Nov 25, 2005 12:36 pm

Are heated hoses effective? I saw several posts that discussed the usefulness of that, and it appears to change the threshold for rainout. That makes sense. There are too many variables to waste a lot of time experimenting (room temperature, humidity, humidifier settings, AFAP pressure, and on and on....). And plus I'd rather just ASK. I would be tempted to get a heated hose ANYWAY, even if rainout wasn't a problem, just to have nice cozy warm air. Or even a passive hose cover, if nothing else, looks nice and reduces that "medical" look. (especially in the dark). The one complaint that I read (in your posts) was that it was heavier and more difficult to manage. Is that a serious annoyance, enough to keep you awake?

They are effective. I have found that nothing works as well as the heated hose when cooler weather gets here. You are right they are heavier but I had no problem adjusting to the weight. It is worth every penny not to have to wake up with a mask full of water at 3:00 am.......My vote is to buy a heated hose and not have to worry about rainout.........hey, I thought it did not rain in Southern California

th
http://www.sleepzone.com.au/
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CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): humidifier, hose, rainout

Ric · Post by **Ric** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 12:46 pm

it only rains:

1. in my CPAP hose/mask, and
2. when I wash my car. (fortunately, rarely)

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 1:08 pm

All those posts you read were right. The heated hose will completely eliminate rainout.

See:

It wont stop raining!!

and

Rainout

ProfessorSleep · Post by **ProfessorSleep** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 1:48 pm

I haven't had the kind of gurgling you describe, but I have had problems with condensation in the mask. The Aura was a big problem and I think that has to do with the location of the exhaust, which is well away from the pillows that provide the pressurized air. I think there is a bit of dead space in the loop that allows the condensate to form. So in that sense, there is some mask variation. The condensation I have had was alleviated by decreasing the level of the HH about 1/2 step (from 3 to 2.5), 3) I applied a fleece tube wrap and also wrapped the short tube of the masks I use with fleece as well. Finally, I lowered the xpap unit onto a small table next to the bed which facilitated condensation running back into the HH chamber. Worked for me, and haven't needed the heated hose yet (but maybe someday, based on the recommendations here). When I started up the household humidifier for winter I was able to decrease my HH level even more, although I hadn't had any more problems by then. Worth a try, I suppose, while you wait to order a heated hose. I suspect at higher pressures the risk of condensation increases also.

snork1 · Post by **snork1** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:57 pm

get the heated hose.

its one of the very few easy decisions we have to add it to our pile of CPAP paraphenalia.

Ric · Post by **Ric** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:52 am

I am well advised. Have ordered it. I anticipate my "goods will be despatched within ten working days."

THANKS !

inacpapfog · Post by **inacpapfog** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:14 am

You will love your heated hose!
(And they are an excellent Christmas present for any cpap user!)

Ric · Post by **Ric** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 8:45 am

It "rained" again last night. About 2 am I set the room temperature to 72, it stopped raining. The heated hose I ordered a couple days ago is starting to look like a good investment.

(hurry up, OZ)

LoneStranger · Post by **LoneStranger** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:38 pm

Gurgling is created when the hose forms a trap. Heated water from the humidifier evaporates as a mist going up the hose to the mask. Any dip in the hose can cause it to catch and hold this condensation which condenses back to water. After some gathers in the trap, the air passing over it creates a gurgling sound. If your machine is on the floor or the hose elevated so it can run back into the humidifier, you shouldn't have that problem. I use a kozy hose cover which helps insulate the hose too and works well for me.

CharlesJ · Post by **CharlesJ** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:44 pm

Y'all,

The heated hose from dan unda did not work for me! My prescription is for humidificated air and I've tried it several times but always wake up soaked, heated hose or not. Tried it again last week since the weather started to get cold I figured the warm air would be nice. Wrong! It was a monsoon!

I like the cold air and not having to worry about the rain.

Chuck

neversleeps · Post by **neversleeps** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:05 pm

Chuck,

Say it isn't so!!!!! This is the first time I've ever run across anyone for whom the heated hose did NOT eliminate rainout. What a bummer!

Since you have the PB420e you must have the heated hose with the sensor line and the piggyback power connector. When you have it on, can you tell if it's working? Does it feel ever so slightly warm to the touch? What setting do you have your GoodKnight integrated humidifier set to? Have you tried it with any mask other than the Activa and still experienced rainout?

Swordz · Post by **Swordz** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:41 pm

Add "No Rainout" to the list of benefits for my dental device!

How much do those Aussie heated hoses cost? Isn't there a CPAP now that has that built in? You'd think they'd done that along time ago.

snork1 · Post by **snork1** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:13 pm

[quote="CharlesJ"]Y'all,

The heated hose from dan unda did not work for me! My prescription is for humidificated air and I've tried it several times but always wake up soaked, heated hose or not. Tried it again last week since the weather started to get cold I figured the warm air would be nice. Wrong! It was a monsoon!

I like the cold air and not having to worry about the rain.

Chuck

sir_cumference · Post by **sir_cumference** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 5:56 am

I find the heated hose a mixed blessing. Yes it is good at helping with rainout - although not 100%. But, if it gets even slightly warm I just hate the extra heat it give me. I actually like cool air to breath. I do use it because it reduces the flow of water, but if I could find some other way that stopped me getting soaked, I would! But the way, I wrote this poem some time ago and thought it may be suitable to re-post it!

Rain(out) by sir_cumference

The rain in Spain may fall on the plain
But the rain in my mask is a pain all the same!
It runs and dribbles and gurgles and splutters
Soaking my lips and making me mutter
Grabbing a Kleenex – the duvet will do
If it doesn’t stop soon it’ll make me feel blue!
It’s soggy and dribbly and drips on my pillow
I’d steal my wife’s but she’d notice the puddle!
But what should I do I need this wet air?
I’ll buy a canoe and just sleep in there!

sir_cumference