Not dreaming while using CPAP

[docholiday]

Is not dreaming while using CPAP normal or okay?

[LSAT]

If you are sleeping you will dream...although you may not remember dreaming.

[docholiday]

As soon as I take it off, I start to dream and I remember the dreams.

[BlackSpinner]

As soon as I take it off, I start to dream and I remember the dreams.

That is because the apneas are waking you up to remember - in order to remember your dreams you need to be shocked awake. People who sleep deeply mostly don't remember their dreams. Actually the only way to know for sure is to be hooked up to show your brainwaves in REM or not - memory is very fallible in this regard.

[torontoCPAPguy]

Agreed. You MUST integrate EEG data in with all the other data in order to determine the efficacy of your treatment. Dreaming alone is not a valid indicator. I have to disagree with being 'shocked awake' although that will certainly cause you to remember dreams; but simply sleeping lightly and having your REM sleep interrupted by apnea or hypopnea events, which is more likely, will cause you to remember dreams - so you are caught between a rock and a hard place so to speak.

One thing I should have included in my threads about oxygen infusion and blood oxygen saturation is simply that, for example, last night I slept like a log for almost 11 hours. I had a two hour nap in the afternoon. Both on supplementally infused O2 to maintain my SaO2 and presumably limit the awakenings during REM sleep.

I HAVE, in fact, been dreaming during sleep with my APAP machine, indicating that I am reaching REM sleep. I AM remembering the dreams vividly indicating that I am being brought out of REM sleep and into an awakening (albeit not fully) state of sleep. Is this a good thing? Can't tell without the use of EEG and in conjunction with all of the other data you need to have on hand.

SaO2 is a very critical part of treatment for sleep apnea, etc. After all, THAT is what we are attempting to normalize with all of this nonsense that we do. We attempt to maintain a level of SaO2 that is healthy for the body (95% seems to be a good number from what I am reading and hearing); higher than 95% and you are pushing away the CO2 that your body uses to maintain breathing during REM sleep and lower than 95% and the lower you go the greater the probability of being aroused from REM sleep fully or partially in order for the brain to get you breathing deeper (or at all for that matter).

It is a complex algorithm of cause and effect and the more I learn the more I realize I don't know.

What I can tell you for certain is that dreaming, of an by itself, cannot be taken as an indicator of too much with regards to this affliction. It is an indicator of something happening, for sure, but exactly WHAT is happening is another story.

So, to be clear:
1. You are dreaming and you recall dreaming... can be caused by the fact that you are now having dreams and are awakened not too long after the last dream., or
2. You are NOT dreaming still can be an indicator that you are now sleeping "like a log" and simply do not recall your dreams.

And finally,
3. ONLY an EEG is going to tell you if and how much REM sleep you may be getting and it is best used in conjuction with a sleep study that will tell you all of the other important things that you need to know, like apnea and hypopnea events, blood oxygen saturation (SaO2) and so on.

Oh, and one last thing.... that blood oxygen saturation is THE object of the game. We need to control and diminish the number of apnea and hypopneas in order to begin to raise our SaO2. Low SaO2 is what kills us folks with sleep apnea, etc. It causes high blood pressure and the resultant heart attacks, strokes and in some cases blood pressure so high it just splits your Aorta and you are gone.

There is a path to the golden bullet in this quest and you will learn the path by reading and participating in the forum. First the right machine that will give you data; a recording oximeter to tell you what your SaO2 is while sleeping and compare to the APAP machine data to corelate; a mask that is suited to YOU and does not leak; attaining the lowest AHI and apnea and hypopnea numbers possible (preferably under 1); continued monitoring of SaO2 to ensure it is maintained above 90% and preferably in the 95% range..... and finally, that sleep study and regular sleep studies to tell you that all of the data you have been collecting is valid, that your pressure settings are valid (note that I did not suggest that you play with your own pressure settings although most of us do just that to find the right setting or range).... and how much REM sleep are you getting.

In the end, it is a matter of (a) health, which the magic bullet will improve to the max; and (b) how we feel - how much energy do we have during the day, how inclined are we to need to sleep during the day, etc.

Not a simple path and not an easy path but one that we MUST advocate for ourselves, least we be handed a CPAP machine, a pressure and have a nice day greetings.

That is where I found myself ten months ago and over the past ten months I have improved my numbers to the best they can be and have just begun O2 infusion at night and to wit, I cannot recall dreams over the past two days although all of my numbers are nearly perfect. I attribute this to not being aroused (awakened) during REM sleep... and the only way I can confirm this now is by a sleep study which is going to be a bugger to get under insurance as they have limited them to one per year now in Ontario. It will require an EEG in order to determine how much REM sleep I am getting with all of my numbers being just about where they need to be.

I suppose my next investment could be in a used EEG but then again, I have no idea how to read the output, etc. A new learning procedure.

[thewetlizard]

The only thing I can tell ya give it some time. Because I dream alot. The last dream I had was about toilet paper!

[auntlala]

torontocpapguy - thanx for the info - i found it helpful - i have been doing a lot of dreaming since i got the cpap - have also been working with a sleep psychologist to improve quality of sleep - the one thing i have become aware of and which led to another study (get those results wednesday) is that there are 2 types of wake ups from dreams - one where it seems to be a natural event at or near the end of the dream and one which is sudden and abrupt and for want of a better word harsh. with my former DME company when i called to try and discuss a sleep issue and described this sensation i got a snotty "well you have to wake up to remember the dream" - only part of why they are my former DME co. i would be happy to not remember a dream if it meant i was sleeping so well it did not rouse me!

[torontoCPAPguy]

torontocpapguy - thanx for the info - i found it helpful - i have been doing a lot of dreaming since i got the cpap - have also been working with a sleep psychologist to improve quality of sleep - the one thing i have become aware of and which led to another study (get those results wednesday) is that there are 2 types of wake ups from dreams - one where it seems to be a natural event at or near the end of the dream and one which is sudden and abrupt and for want of a better word harsh. with my former DME company when i called to try and discuss a sleep issue and described this sensation i got a snotty "well you have to wake up to remember the dream" - only part of why they are my former DME co. i would be happy to not remember a dream if it meant i was sleeping so well it did not rouse me!

Like I say, the only real way to tell if you are getting that REM sleep (dream sleep) is by EEG in a sleep lab or whatever. Regretably, remembering a dream or not remembering a dream on its own is almost meaningless. I don't remember dreaming last night but having just started oxygen infusion slept like a log through the night pretty much and I think that just might include a few periods of REM sleep... but I don't know and can't know until I have an EEG going while I am sleeping. Sic. I am, however, planning on titrating the oxygen and my APAP pressure down a notch tonight to see if I can hit 95% SpO2 all through the night with zero events logged. At that point I am going to leave things alone for the week or so until my meeting with my new pulmonologist (I shouldn't say new... I have a sleep doc, a respirologist and a pulmonologist as well as a heart doc, dentist, GP, endocronologist and so on... you might say I am the godfather of patients here in my area and keep things running). The first thing I am going to show my pulmonologist is a binder of S9 Auto charts and corresponding oximetry charts.... titrated along the way to the point of AHI=0.0 and SpO2=95% all night. And ask for a sleep study to confirm that I am getting a goodly portion of REM sleep via EEG. Still not feeling my 'good old self' but am hoping that with O2 infusion and titration that I will start getting caught up with sleep and exercise and back to better health and lifestyle. Now, what to do about this arthritis. I slept so well last night that not moving around during the night has exacerbated my arthritis in my back. You just cannot win!

[LoQ]

The first thing I am going to show my pulmonologist is a binder of S9 Auto charts and corresponding oximetry charts

I'm the kind of patient who likes to bring in charts of stuff. It's kind of interesting, some of my doctors love those and will want to look over them. Others of them don't even want to see them. None of them want to see a whole binder of charts, though, so I generally try to create summary reports with detailed back up charts when appropriate. I also try to tailor what I bring to the doctor's preference. My pulmonologist doesn't care about charts, so I save myself a bunch of time in preparation for that appointment by not preparing any data.

My neurologist will look at them if I bring them, but I've discovered that the appointment goes better if I don't give him any data. Go figure.

A binder of charts may not be in your best interest. Who knows? Do you want the doctor to spend 15 minutes reviewing your chart, or spend 2 minutes looking at a typical chart, a summary chart, an average chart, etc., and 13 minutes thinking about your problems?

[brazospearl]

docholiday, welcome to the forum! When you said you start to dream as soon as you take your mask off, do you mean that you remove your mask & go back to sleep? If that's what's happening, it might help you to keep the mask on all night instead. Don't worry about the dreams at this point; it's more important to be focusing on optimizing your therapy.

[torontoCPAPguy]

I missed that. It doesn't make sense that you are not dreaming with the mask on and then dreaming with the mask off and remembering them unless....

Aha. Unless with the mask on you are sleeping right through those REM sleep periods of dreaming and not awakening sufficiently to remember them. Generally, dreams that are remembered are those dreams during REM sleep that are followed by an awakening (perhaps not fully). A total lack of dreams means one of two things: either you are not entering REM sleep or you are entering REM sleep, getting a full portion thereof, and then continuing to sleep deeply. Remembering dreams means that your REM sleep is being interrupted or that your REM sleep is causing an arousal/awakening of some degree that permits you to register the dream.

In any event, like I say, the only way you are going to discover the efficacy of your therapy is via a sleep study with EEG, oximetry, etc. The object of the game is to maintain SpO2 in the 95% range for argument sake through the night, including the REM sleep stage where your body is essentially paralyzed and running on autopilot. If your SpO2 is dropping during REM sleep due to greater relaxation and OSA events or hypopnea events, the body will awaken itself and the brain will then tell you to breathe more deeply to raise the SpO2 in its function of self-preservation (i.e. oxygenation is more important than sleep). The problem with OSA/etc., is simply that as your SpO2 drops off, you lose deep sleep and all that is associated with it but more importantly it is that your SpO2 drops and spikes your blood pressure, causing the associated bad news effects of same, namely stroke, heart attack, aneurism, popped artery, organ damage, whatever. This is why folks that find the 'golden bullet' in terms of treating their OSA/Etc., generally find that not only does their blood pressure tend to drop but all sorts of other ailments tend to be mitigated as well. This is as a result of the liver and other organs doing their jobs more efficiently. One's memory will improve and so on.

In any event, again, with regards to dreaming and CPAP.... the only way to tell if CPAP is working efficiently IMHO is with an EEG and all of the other data that we are normally collecting. BP would be an interesting thing to have as clinical data as well, but is taken to rise as SpO2 drops. I have an Accutor BP Meter and the cuff pressurizing is a pain. It will wake you up every time.

[billbolton]

Is not dreaming while using CPAP normal or okay?

Its highly unlikely that you are not dreaming when using xPAP treatment. On the other hand it is highly likely that you are also not waking up much, if at all, when on xPAP treatment, so you have no reason to remember your dreams.

For me, since starting xPAP treament several years ago, If you I do remember a dream its only because it was in progress when the alarm clock went off in the morning

Cheers,

Bill

[kteague]

While some may be able to see patterns in their dreaming while on vs off cpap, I can't use it to extract any sensible theories about my treatment. Since dreaming does also happen in non REM, and long term sleep deprivation can skew expected patterns, I'm reluctant to assign dreaming or remembering dreams much significance. I nearly always "dream" even if I only dozed of a few seconds or minutes. I remember most of them upon awakening but they slip away quickly and I couldn't tell you an hour later what they were. I suspect some of this may be hallucinations upon entering sleep. Some of the overnight dreams I can recall during the next day if something happens that triggers the memory, but often I don't remember them at all though I can tell I had an extended period of sleeping soundly. It is my assumption those times that things were exactly as they were supposed to be. Without cpap my dreams were prolific and usually tortured, and I believe that to be due to apnea events that woke me, as I remembered them vividly even days laters. With cpap my dreams that I do remember after sleeping well are usually not traumatic. I don't know how reliable they are, but I wonder if the gizmos that are supposed to track REM sleep based on movement could give any assurance that one is really reaching REM during sleep at home. Maybe someone who has used them could comment. Also wondering if any sleep techs have seen them used in the lab for comparison to the EEG data.

[chunkyfrog]

I miss remembering my dreams every night--even when those dreams were disturbing.
I found it strangely entertaining that my subconscious mind was "putting on a show", and I hated to miss this odd entertainment.
--So I wear my hose every night for the sleep I need, and read this forum for the 'rest'--

[rested gal]

LINKS to dreaming - dreams - REM rebound
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