OT: OBAMA SOAKS THE RICH: CHURCHES, DAY CARE, HOMELESS SHELT

[SharkBait]

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..........
So yeah, I'm all for sticking it to the uber-rich because they've got so much dough and I don't ..........

Our Constitution exists to protect individuals from large groups with this attitude. Lose that Constitution and we are down the drain out into the sewer.

I was being facetious...

[Debjax]

the creationists (uhhh, I mean lemmings)

Careful, you're lumping all in with one general statement. Not all creationists believe that the world was created less than 10,000 years ago....some of us actually do recognize that the world is far older than that. And let's be honest, evolutionists can't prove their side of the fence either. Has ANYONE found ANY proof of transition from one species to another or any 'missing links" to prove the theory, or is is sill just a theory?

[DreamStalker]

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.......... Faith-based math, science and technology just does not work! ... ...........

DS,

At a practical level, you and I probably agree on this one. We don't want a religious council interfering with the work of scientists or the writing of science text books.

Where we may disagree is on the idea that science is a complete framework for understanding man and the universe, so unscientific claims should be rejected. I believe this is an irrational idea. It would be like trying to understand the love between a newlywed couple through the laws of physics and chemistry alone.

Trying to explain everything through science is inadequate and unreasonable.

Regards,

Yes. We do agree. Religious beliefs should be kept well out of reach of the scientific method. It would be like creationists and evangelicals trying to understand the concept of evolution.

Science is indeed incomplete with regard to the inherent uncertainty of man and the universe ... and unscientific claims such as that of the Texas Board of Education chairman should be rejected.

Only religion can satisfy the human understanding of uncertainty ... well, maybe math can too for some but that is besides the point.

[roster]

How "thinking" and/or "inquiring" do you think your children will be if everything they 'learn' is filtered through a faith-based 'religion' from 2000 years ago and interpreted by a slew of others who followed along a few years after that, putting their own spin on what (to me anyhow) was already "spin" to begin with?

Julie,

That makes sense if you conveniently overlook the fact that the history of science shows that modern science is an invention of medieval Christianity, and that the greatest breakthroughs in scientific reason have largely been the work of Christians. Even atheist scientists work with Christian assumptions that, due to their ignorance of theology and history, are invisible to them.

But Julie, I know what you are talking about. There is a loud, dogmatic, intolerant segment of Christianity that makes our skin crawl. They are not practicing the grace, tolerance of individual freedom, and love of one another that our faith was based upon. Unfortunately, Christians are often judged by people only familiar with this loud segment. "Christians" are the number one cause of the decline in church membership in the U.S.

BTW, one of my best friends, a great guy with a great family, is an amateur "Creationist". I have to remind myself to be gentle and respectful when discussing the subject with him. Of course, I would like to convince him to take a tolerant view of the theory of evolution and learn some more about it.

Regards,

[DreamStalker]

the creationists (uhhh, I mean lemmings)

Careful, you're lumping all in with one general statement. Not all creationists believe that the world was created less than 10,000 years ago....some of us actually do recognize that the world is far older than that. And let's be honest, evolutionists can't prove their side of the fence either. Has ANYONE found ANY proof of transition from one species to another or any 'missing links" to prove the theory, or is is sill just a theory?

Oh pardon me ... young Earth and old Earth lemmings ... there is a difference.

Depends what you mean by "theory" ... as in conspiracy or scientific?

Try this link for a better understanding of your own question http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_ ... y_and_fact

[roster]

I am not trying to make enemys here, but most of the comments are typical of people not understanding the policy. Persaon a tells person b that this is what it is, and all of a sudden it is the truth, wether or not it started out as the truth or not. The donations Charitable one, from the "rich" instead of getting 33% write off on taxes, they would only get a 28% write off. If you are in the 28% bracket, you only get to write off 28% of you charitable deductions. If you are in the 33% bracket , teh way it use to be, you could write off 33%. Does that seem fair? the people that are contributing that dont earn as much dont get as much of a break,as the "rich" people get.

I might be for the straight tax for everyone.

Slacker,

I can't speak for the others, but I like to make friends over political, economic, and philosophical debates. I don't have enough years left to be collecting enemies.

I take exception to calling a tax deduction a "break". Allowing you to keep some of what is already rightfully yours is not a break.

Look into the FairTax Plan, http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer? ... about_main. It has tremendous appeal to me and I hope to meet with one of my Congressmen in April to learn a lot more about it.

I have just been working on 2008 returns for my mother and myself. The current tax code is insane!!! If Obama wants to bring change, here is some ground for fruitful change. Like nuke it and start all over.

Regards,

[roster]

............
..........
So yeah, I'm all for sticking it to the uber-rich because they've got so much dough and I don't ..........

Our Constitution exists to protect individuals from large groups with this attitude. Lose that Constitution and we are down the drain out into the sewer.

I was being facetious...

Understood.

[DreamStalker]

.... The current tax code is insane!!! If Obama wants to bring change, here is some ground for fruitful change. Like nuke it and start all over.

Regards,

100% agreement on the insanity being nuked.

However, I don't see anything fair about the fair tax plan. I only glanced over the site but it appears that with a federal sales tax, low income people end up paying tax on 100% of their "low" income (since they have to spend it all to survive) and wealthy people only pay tax on a fraction of their high income ... (the wealthier will get even more wealthy at the expense of the poor becoming more poor).

A flat rate tax on "gross" income with no loop hole deductions what so ever sounds more fair to me.

[roster]

..........
Depends what you mean by "theory" ... as in conspiracy or scientific?

Try this link for a better understanding of your own question http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_ ... y_and_fact

Thanks DS,

That's good and I have to study it when I have more time. It has already helped me categorized my currently held beliefs. When I woke up this morning, I believed the following:

-I believed evolution is a fact when "defined simply as changes in trait or gene frequency in a population of organisms from one generation to the next."
-I believed differences in trait composition between isolated populations over many generations may in some cases have resulted in the origin of new species. There is uncertainty.
-I did not believe all living organisms alive today have descended from a common ancestor (or ancestral gene pool). Although I am skeptical, I will admit it could be true. After all, our Creator has not revealed to me the methodology for His creation.

An atheist friend wanted me to read, A River Out of Eden by Jack Dawkins and was sure that the book would convince me his views were correct. He loaned me his copy and I found it fascinating reading. However, my atheist friend was unhappy to hear that the book absolutely convinced me that it could not have happened the way Dawkins described unless there was a Creator driving the whole process.

I have to take up some more reading about evolution.

BTW, Whoever or whatever did it, I would like to speak to them (Them) about this design of one passage through which we must breathe, eat, and talk. Two or three passages would have saved our group a lot of misery, don't you think?

Regards,

[roster]

.... The current tax code is insane!!! If Obama wants to bring change, here is some ground for fruitful change. Like nuke it and start all over.

Regards,

100% agreement on the insanity being nuked.

However, I don't see anything fair about the fair tax plan. I only glanced over the site but it appears that with a federal sales tax, low income people end up paying tax on 100% of their "low" income (since they have to spend it all to survive) and wealthy people only pay tax on a fraction of their high income ... (the wealthier will get even more wealthy at the expense of the poor becoming more poor).

A flat rate tax on "gross" income with no loop hole deductions what so ever sounds more fair to me.

I have to give it another look. There are "prebate allowances" for the low income people. I used the calculator for two people filing jointly, making $30,000 and they got a $4,700 prebate. I believe theoretically you are allowed enough income through your own earnings and the prebate allowances to purchase the necessities.

Let's don't throw this baby out just yet. Think of all the CPAs and IRS employees that can be used as resources to do something productive for a change!

[Gale Hawkins]

I do see Obama's point of view even if I do not agree with it.

He sees the taxes avoided by making gifts personally is funneling away tax dollars that he would other wise have for his budget and that he could control what groups get the money and which do not.

[SaltLakeJan]

The agrements and disagreements on this particular thread have value to me. I have been involved in the political process for years. In USA we have the freedom to agree or not. One of my daughters strongly disagrees with my political opinions. She expresses her views, and I do also. Because of this diversity, our family is politically aware and news program, newspapers/news magazines keep us busy. supporting our views. In the past changes in our government occurred on a slow basis; we had an opportunity to study the proposals. Currently, I find change can occur several times in a day.

To support Travis's point: Zbigniew Brezezskyi, Carter's National Security Advisor, appeared on "Good Morning Joe" this week. He offered his view of our current situation; Re: To be admitted into the European Union a country cannot have more than 30% debt . He stated USA's current debt level is 90%.

Perhaps this debate on Cpap.talk will result in greater political awareness for all of us.
Jan

[Wulfman]

The agrements and disagreements on this particular thread have value to me. I have been involved in the political process for years. In USA we have the freedom to agree or not. One of my daughters strongly disagrees with my political opinions. She expresses her views, and I do also. Because of this diversity, our family is politically aware and news program, newspapers/news magazines keep us busy. supporting our views. In the past changes in our government occurred on a slow basis; we had an opportunity to study the proposals. Currently, I find change can occur several times in a day.

To support Travis's point: Zbigniew Brezezskyi, Carter's National Security Advisor, appeared on "Good Morning Joe" this week. He offered his view of our current situation; Re: To be admitted into the European Union a country cannot have more than 30% debt . He stated USA's current debt level is 90%.

Perhaps this debate on Cpap.talk will result in greater political awareness for all of us.
Jan

I wonder if that's BEFORE all of this new "stimulus" money is going to be borrowed for the 3.6T budget?
I also wonder what they consider the (30%) percentage ratio to be "against". In banking it's usually debt-to-asset ratios. If that holds true, how do they determine what a country's assets to be worth?

I like that show, too. I try to watch it every morning, but only get to see it from 5:00 - 6:00.....and I missed the part of it that morning when he was on. Of course, he's on there occasionally as his daughter is one of the co-hosts.

Den

[Fredman]

Rooster's quotation came from Dick Morris. It's worth doing a bit of research on Morris if you care to judge how seriously to take his analysis.

Rooster, love ya, but you gotta cite your quotations...I will "assume" that you forgot to post where this information came from. Despite what side of the teeter totter you totter on politically, it helps to get the full picture my friend.

Interesting points of views throughout.

[ww]

I am not trying to make enemys here, but most of the comments are typical of people not understanding the policy. Persaon a tells person b that this is what it is, and all of a sudden it is the truth, wether or not it started out as the truth or not. The donations Charitable one, from the "rich" instead of getting 33% write off on taxes, they would only get a 28% write off. If you are in the 28% bracket, you only get to write off 28% of you charitable deductions. If you are in the 33% bracket , teh way it use to be, you could write off 33%. Does that seem fair? the people that are contributing that dont earn as much dont get as much of a break,as the "rich" people get.

I might be for the straight tax for everyone.

Slacker,

I can't speak for the others, but I like to make friends over political, economic, and philosophical debates. I don't have enough years left to be collecting enemies.

I take exception to calling a tax deduction a "break". Allowing you to keep some of what is already rightfully yours is not a break.

Look into the FairTax Plan, http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer? ... about_main. It has tremendous appeal to me and I hope to meet with one of my Congressmen in April to learn a lot more about it.

I have just been working on 2008 returns for my mother and myself. The current tax code is insane!!! If Obama wants to bring change, here is some ground for fruitful change. Like nuke it and start all over.

Regards,

Yeah, the fair tax is the easiest way to turn the tables and let the old people and the retired and the poor pay the highest percentage of their income rather than the low tax rate they now enjoy. I always enjoy it when politicians call a tax fair when it is only fair to the highest income people or call it a tax simplification when it only complicates everything. If the tax code were not complex, Turbo Tax and Tax Cut would now be bankrupt!

I am an engineer and my entire background is math and science. It never ceases to amaze me at the totally illogical arguments that politicians use when there are NO facts to support their argument (such as FAIR TAX). Even reminds me of the DME saying this is a data capable machine that keeps up with your compliance data!!!!