Common sequela: anxiety and OSA

Jenny,

Interesting that you have fibromyalgia. I was tested for it about a year ago because I have a lot of joint problems. They told me I didn't have it--yet. They told me I was very high risk and to be sure to continue antidepressants because the rheumatologist felt that the same chemicals in our brain that govern depression also govern fibromyalgia.

I don't know if that is true, but I do know that in my research into fibromyalgia there is a big connection with sleep. They believe that if we aren't sleeping well then all those little itty bitty bits of damage that we do to our joints aren't being repaired as we sleep and the damage builds up and/or the chemical result of the damage builds up in the joint and doesn't get carried away.

An old co-worker of mine had fibro and she was in a lot of pain one day and I noticed she was taking exedrine. She didn't know that it was LOADED with caffeine and was eating it like candy. I'm sure it contributed to her poor sleep contributing to the worsening of her symptoms. I was her supervisor and when I went home for lunch that day, I grabbed a big bottle of ibuprofin from my med cabinet and gave it to her and told her to use all of that up before touching another excedrin and see if she felt better! I have a total maternal reaction towards anyone working for me!

Anyway, rambling again. Gotta go get the spaghetti and meatballs off the stove and serve supper. Jen

socknitster wrote: They told me I was very high risk and to be sure to continue antidepressants because the rheumatologist felt that the same chemicals in our brain that govern depression also govern fibromyalgia.

I think thats a stretch since since there has _never_ been proof that depression is caused by low neurotransmitter levels. We only know that messing with them sometimes helps, other times makes things worse. If you boost a chemical that controls mood and it makes you feel better it does not mean that the problem was that chemical was low. Just like if you take an asprin and your headache goes away it does not mean that headaches are caused by low asprin level (however thats exactly the jump of logic that the psychiatric community has sold to us)

socknitster wrote: I do know that in my research into fibromyalgia there is a big connection with sleep. They believe that if we aren't sleeping well then all those little itty bitty bits of damage that we do to our joints aren't being repaired as we sleep

I think you are dead on on that one. I would not be surprised to learn some day that Fibromyalgia is really just a type of (or caused by) sleep disorder. Rather than sleep problems being a symptom in Fibromyalgia it could turn out to be the cause. I think its stage 4 sleep that you need for muscles to repair themselves? If your not getting that something bad is eventually bound to happen. Just speculating at this point of course.

Jen, Oh no, I'm glad you set your coworker straight. Yeah, Excedrin is loaded with caffeine! Great for the occasional migraine, but not every day. Not to mention the aspirin can wreck your stomach.

I think ultimately we'll find that what we call fibro is being caused by various conditions, but one of those conditions for sure is disrupted sleep.

I can't speak for depression (which also has multiple causes I bet), but lower serotonin levels have been found in people with fibromyalgia. Along with HPA axis hypofunction, lower thyroid, and higher levels of substance P (a neurotransmitter). So along with the muscle repair theory is a theory that endocrine/neurotransmitter abnormalities lead to people having an increased sensitivity to pain. I'm sure my disrupted sleep lead to this for me. At least I hope so.

Anyway now that I've been on the AD for a couple weeks and have adjusted well, tonight I try CPAP again. Here's hoping for the best! Jenny

socknitster wrote:Wow! I was just guessing about it. You know they say hindsight is 20/20. Good to confirm that what I was experiencing was real and I wasn't crazy. I am curious to see how my body overall will change when I'm not flooded with stress hormones each night. Could be like a fountain of youth! This started in my very early 20's--shortly thereafter people were "guessing" I was in my 30's. Lord only knows what they think now. Now if I could just get used to sleeping with this windtunnel strapped to my face. . .

Jen, if your Avatar is YOU, then I think A) You're GORGEOUS, and B) You look about 25 to me. See? CPAP is working for you!

Cheers,
B.

socknitster wrote:
Just like if you take an asprin and your headache goes away it does not mean that headaches are caused by low asprin level (however thats exactly the jump of logic that the psychiatric community has sold to us)

Actually that would mean the psychiatric community was saying because Lexapro (for e.g.) helps your depression, your depression must be caused by low Lexapro levels. I think you made the jump in logic. : )

They are fond of telling us that depression is caused by a 'chemical imbalance' and that antidepressants fix this. Which is a load of um crap. Jenny

oops, to clarify, jen didn't write that, jskinner did ...

jrgood wrote:

socknitster wrote:
Just like if you take an asprin and your headache goes away it does not mean that headaches are caused by low asprin level (however thats exactly the jump of logic that the psychiatric community has sold to us)

Actually that would mean the psychiatric community was saying because Lexapro (for e.g.) helps your depression, your depression must be caused by low Lexapro levels. I think you made the jump in logic. : )

They are fond of telling us that depression is caused by a 'chemical imbalance' and that antidepressants fix this. Which is a load of um crap. Jenny

jrgood wrote:They are fond of telling us that depression is caused by a 'chemical imbalance' and that antidepressants fix this. Which is a load of um crap.

I would be willing to believe that depression is caused by chemical imbalence but no one has ever been able to show this, not even once, despite many attempts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_imbalance_theory

Even worse with no way to measure this proposed imbalance. How can one diagnose that you have a chemical imbalance with a tool to measure this or even ever proving it exists? Or once you start therapy how can you monitor progress. How will you know when you have indeed corrected this imbalance that you can't measure. How can you be sure your not actually creating an imbalance (which would be my guess at how ADs work)

Lets say that we somehow knew there was an imbalance, what causes this imbalance? Shouldn't we target the cause rather than the imbalance? I bet being constantly happy creates an "imbalance" should we treat that with drugs? If we are constantly sad shouldn't we find out why and try to fix that rather than forcing our body to feel better?

Again just my views. In severe cases ADs might be the last choice. I don't mean to sound like have the answers to these complex questions but I do question the current common practices.

I'm always leary of threads where they start answering their own questions, but it is about prozac

what did you say snoredog?

I said...

I am so annoyed by those folks that are happy all the time. They need a pill too!

I would be willing to believe that depression is caused by chemical imbalence but no one has ever been able to show this, not even once, despite many attempts.

I'm not sure about that. You are going to have to look farther afield than wiki to get that kind of in-depth scientific info. Try pubmed.

You are absolutely correct that it is an inexact science that needs TONS more attention. But who is going to give that to depressed people who can't fight for themselves! They seem to be willing to throw a lot of money into developing new drugs for this and refining the ones they have, but the drug companies aren't out there figuring out the cause, as you say. That is one of the biggest problems of our society on nearly every level--ignore the real problem and treat the symptom! If you find the real problem then you can't keep selling drugs to people. Treat the symptom and they are coming back for more, probably for life.

May sound dumb, but that is one of the number one reasons I had to get off of lexapro (even though I just went to a different one). I thought it was so irresponsible to put something on the market that causes that kind of dependence. I didn't want to keep paying them money every month! I'll be thrilled as soon as I can get off the prozac too!

Jen, if your Avatar is YOU, then I think A) You're GORGEOUS, and B) You look about 25 to me. See? CPAP is working for you!

Umm. It is me, but funnily enough, it was me when I was about 25! How is that for irony! I'm sure I could find some equally hazy picture of myself to post now but since I became a mom, most of my pics are of my son or have my son in them! It would take some serious searching through my photo archives to find a good current pic. I love the pic that is my avatar because I was at a sheep farm and though you can't see them, I am playing with some really cool sheep. I am a knitter. Loveeee the wool!

Hope to look that good again soon, but motherhood has taken its toll that has nothing to do with apnea--so we shall see!

Anyway now that I've been on the AD for a couple weeks and have adjusted well, tonight I try CPAP again. Here's hoping for the best! Jenny

Good luck Jenny! I hope it goes smoothly for you and you feel better soon! Three cheers for sleep!

Snoredog wrote:I'm always leary of threads where they start answering their own questions, but it is about prozac

what did you say snoredog?

I said...

Goob! What kind of drugs are you on snoredog? I am really jonesing for some 02 about 3 am, know any suppliers?

p.s. Babette, you made my week! Jen

socknitster wrote:I'm not sure about that. You are going to have to look farther afield than wiki to get that kind of in-depth scientific info. Try pubmed.

Sorry, I wasn't meaning to imply that Wikipeida was the source of any scientific info. I just thought it had a half decent overview of the issue for those who might be new to the issue. I agree pubmed is extremely valuable.

socknitster wrote: If you find the real problem then you can't keep selling drugs to people. Treat the symptom and they are coming back for more, probably for life.

Extremely true.

Justin_Case wrote:But, you're already dependent on a drug (lithium). So, there is no difference except in semantics. You're a victim already. The lithium you are taking is harming you, whether you accept it or not.

Interesting idea. However, for me it is a choice of living without any drugs (very bad quality of life) weighed against living with lithium (much better quality of life with very minor side effects). I was born this way - I inherited my anxiety from my mother's side of the family where the history of suicides, drug addiction and disabling depression is a very scary truth. So I would rather take the lithium to manage my anxiety. It sure beats swinging from the end of a rope.

But a victim of the medication - that is a characterization I cannot support in any way. I feel lucky compared to - say my Aunt - who blew her brains out or my mother who is a life-long alcoholic and drug addict. I have spent much of my life seeking ways to manage my situation. I can't say that you have provided any sort of alternative and to say I am a victim if lithium without knowing me is disrespectful.

I shared my extremely personal experience on this board because maybe it would help someone in a similar situation. It's been a long journey for me and I am very comfortable with where I am.

Cheers!

socknitster wrote:In this day and age medical care is just so complex, we HAVE to be our own health advocate. Gone are the days where you just trust the doctor knows more about it than you do, like my grandfather did. Now when you get a diagnosis you have to become educated on every facet, every possibility, to manage your own care. I can't tell you how many hours I have spent researching health topics to try to brainstorm with my docs about what is wrong with me.

You are so right! I only received the help I needed by getting my psych, internist and sleep doc to get on the phone together and actually collaborate on the best course of treatment for me.

I cannot tell you how hard it is to get doctors to speak to each other. It's like that old joke about the blind men each describing an elephant by the one body part they each encounter. One doc thought this, one thought that and the third thought something different altogether.

I seemed like blasphemy when I suggested the docs should talk. Finally, they did what I asked and came up with a course of treatment. I feel better now than I have in 20 years.

We all have to do whatever it is we each need to keep going.

I shared my extremely personal experience on this board because maybe it would help someone in a similar situation. It's been a long journey for me and I am very comfortable with where I am.

A very thoughtful and provoking post, jere. It is important to keep talking about our issues and (if you can ignore flamers), boards like this are a good place to meet people with telling experiences whome we would never have access to in regular life.

I think sometimes people forget why we are here--to educate, to learn, to see we aren't alone.

It is easy to get caught up in our opinions, when they are strong. I am glad you are comfortable where you are but still searching for answers. That is where I am too. This board has already revealed to me a connection to another health problem that I didn't know could be causing or contributing to my apnea. I would be completely in the dark without it. For the most part, places like this are a blessing!

Jen