Healthy person on APAP - what would happen?

Hi everyone. I've been following this forum for a while and just registered because I am curious about this scenario. So, as the subject suggests, what would happen if you put a healthy person on an APAP, 4 to 20 cmH2O? Let's ignore the fact that this person would probably need some time to adjust because he or she never used an APAP before.

Would the pressure ever rise, or would it remain at 4 cmH2O? If so, does this by default mean that if the pressure is rising, the person on APAP *MUST* have some kind of breathing disorders in their sleep?

I realize this may sound like a dumb question to some of you, but I can't help it, I'm really curious

ShadowGallery wrote: ↑

Sun May 20, 2018 3:13 pm

Would the pressure ever rise, or would it remain at 4 cmH2O? If so, does this by default mean that if the pressure is rising, the person on APAP *MUST* have some kind of breathing disorders in their sleep?

What is "healthy" in your view for this thought exercise?

Pressure rises on most apaps for four reasons, snores, flow limitations, hypopneas, and obstructive apneas.

"normal" "healthy" people don't have "perfect" breathing under normal circumstances... so, yes, the pressure would likely rise, and fall.

If it helped that "healthy" person sleep better, that healthy person would get great benefit.

If set up correctly, your electric bill would go up slightly. Jim

4 to 20 cm, isn't set up correctly!

I think that what's being asked is whether a person who has no known need of xPAP were to use one. I really don't think it would be detrimental in any way. However, doctors don't like to give drugs that are not "needed," so I imagine that this would fall under that umbrella (i.e. a mechanical intervention would be viewed in the same light as a pharmacological one).

On the bottom of the left hand side of page 1131 of the liked article, there is a suggestion that CPAP may help patients with GERD (gastroesophageal reflux disease), even in the absence of OSA. I'm not sure how they would titrate such a patient.

Link ===> https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf ... 05.02447.x

OTC meds can do you dangerous harm with their side-effects, even when you need their benefits.

On the other hand, CPAP machines aren't like that at all. They are harmless, unless you drop one on your toe.

Slightly pressurized air is just as harmless as non-pressurized air.

The question of whether someone "has" OSA doesn't matter. The only question is whether someone will benefit from PAP or not. It may help. It may not. But it won't harm.

The question is similar to asking "what if someone puts a bandage on a place where there is no cut?" It may provide no benefit. Or it may protect the area from getting a cut. But it certainly would not hurt anything.

ShadowGallery wrote: ↑

Sun May 20, 2018 3:13 pm

Hi everyone. I've been following this forum for a while and just registered because I am curious about this scenario. So, as the subject suggests, what would happen if you put a healthy person on an APAP, 4 to 20 cmH2O? Let's ignore the fact that this person would probably need some time to adjust because he or she never used an APAP before.

Would the pressure ever rise, or would it remain at 4 cmH2O? If so, does this by default mean that if the pressure is rising, the person on APAP *MUST* have some kind of breathing disorders in their sleep?

I realize this may sound like a dumb question to some of you, but I can't help it, I'm really curious

Would the pressure rise? I would say so in most cases but admittedly I'm just guessing.

If it does rise does it by default mean the person had some sort of breathing disorder? I don't think so .

When you get blood work done did you know the acceptable ranges actually vary depending on the lab doing the testing? They do . There are "ranges" that are determined to be "healthy".

Best example is sleep apnea which this forum is all about.

It's normal to have an AHI of 5 or less. An AHI of 5 which is considered normal would cause an APAP most likely to go above 4 cm H20.

Or 4 cm, not being enough for the person hooked up to the machine, (starved for air) would cause breathing to be not normal, and the APAP might respond trying to become normal. Jim

Without some positive feedback, it might get old.
People who NEED cpap often have trouble sticking with it.
Why put someone with no breathing disorder on it?
Unless that person has Munchausen's . . .

Goofproof wrote: ↑

Sun May 20, 2018 9:17 pm

Or 4 cm, not being enough for the person hooked up to the machine, (starved for air) would cause breathing to be not normal, and the APAP might respond trying to become normal. Jim

I'm no expert but according to this link 3 cm H20 is pressure from normal breathe.
https://www.ebme.co.uk/articles/clinica ... entilation

So 4 cm H20 should actually be a net gain of pressure of breathing.

It actually did this to my sister and her husband some years ago.
The pressure never increased for my sister. I don't think she had OSA...was only complaining of fatigue that eventually was blamed on blood pressure meds because she changed meds and the fatigue went away.
Now her husband...different story. Pressure went up to 10 and stayed there all night and might have gone higher but I limited the max to 10 just for screening purposes. He had all the classic complaints and probably had OSA but he blew it off.

USMCVet wrote: ↑

Sun May 20, 2018 9:36 pm

Goofproof wrote: ↑

Sun May 20, 2018 9:17 pm

Or 4 cm, not being enough for the person hooked up to the machine, (starved for air) would cause breathing to be not normal, and the APAP might respond trying to become normal. Jim

I'm no expert but according to this link 3 cm H20 is pressure from normal breathe.
https://www.ebme.co.uk/articles/clinica ... entilation

So 4 cm H20 should actually be a net gain of pressure of breathing.

Maybe in the u.s., we breath deeper. Jim

Or in our dreams we run faster requiring more air, I am not comfortable breathing in a mask under 10 cm, for me after 13 years, 15 cm is normal for me.

Goofproof wrote: ↑

Sun May 20, 2018 10:09 pm

USMCVet wrote: ↑

Sun May 20, 2018 9:36 pm

Goofproof wrote: ↑

Sun May 20, 2018 9:17 pm

Or 4 cm, not being enough for the person hooked up to the machine, (starved for air) would cause breathing to be not normal, and the APAP might respond trying to become normal. Jim

I'm no expert but according to this link 3 cm H20 is pressure from normal breathe.
https://www.ebme.co.uk/articles/clinica ... entilation

So 4 cm H20 should actually be a net gain of pressure of breathing.

Maybe in the u.s., we breath deeper. Jim

Or in our dreams we run faster requiring more air, I am not comfortable breathing in a mask under 10 cm, for me after 13 years, 15 cm is normal for me.

At 4 cm H20 I felt like I couldn't breathe either. It probably all comes down to repetition. I didn't spend more then a night or so at 4. Since then I have learned that giving things a week goes a long way.

In the U.S. we are better at everything

USMCVet wrote: ↑

Sun May 20, 2018 10:13 pm

Goofproof wrote: ↑

Sun May 20, 2018 10:09 pm

USMCVet wrote: ↑

Sun May 20, 2018 9:36 pm

Goofproof wrote: ↑

Sun May 20, 2018 9:17 pm

Or 4 cm, not being enough for the person hooked up to the machine, (starved for air) would cause breathing to be not normal, and the APAP might respond trying to become normal. Jim

I'm no expert but according to this link 3 cm H20 is pressure from normal breathe.
https://www.ebme.co.uk/articles/clinica ... entilation

So 4 cm H20 should actually be a net gain of pressure of breathing.

Maybe in the u.s., we breath deeper. Jim

Or in our dreams we run faster requiring more air, I am not comfortable breathing in a mask under 10 cm, for me after 13 years, 15 cm is normal for me.

At 4 cm H20 I felt like I couldn't breathe either. It probably all comes down to repetition. I didn't spend more then a night or so at 4. Since then I have learned that giving things a week goes a long way.

In the U.S. we are better at everything

We have to be we police the world, with our nose! Sticking it anywhere we can. Jim

I started at 14.5 cm, the first night no ramp, still recovering from a quad, very sore for three weeks. 13 years later at 15 cm. I do think my chest size got bigger... Felt like my chest way going to blow out.
Good pain med's! Not that I used them much.

Goofproof wrote: ↑

Sun May 20, 2018 11:09 pm

USMCVet wrote: ↑

Sun May 20, 2018 10:13 pm

Goofproof wrote: ↑

Sun May 20, 2018 10:09 pm

USMCVet wrote: ↑

Sun May 20, 2018 9:36 pm

Goofproof wrote: ↑

Sun May 20, 2018 9:17 pm

Or 4 cm, not being enough for the person hooked up to the machine, (starved for air) would cause breathing to be not normal, and the APAP might respond trying to become normal. Jim

I'm no expert but according to this link 3 cm H20 is pressure from normal breathe.
https://www.ebme.co.uk/articles/clinica ... entilation

So 4 cm H20 should actually be a net gain of pressure of breathing.

Maybe in the u.s., we breath deeper. Jim

Or in our dreams we run faster requiring more air, I am not comfortable breathing in a mask under 10 cm, for me after 13 years, 15 cm is normal for me.

At 4 cm H20 I felt like I couldn't breathe either. It probably all comes down to repetition. I didn't spend more then a night or so at 4. Since then I have learned that giving things a week goes a long way.

In the U.S. we are better at everything

We have to be we police the world, with our nose! Sticking it anywhere we can. Jim

You get it lol