Healthy person on APAP - what would happen?
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Healthy person on APAP - what would happen?
Hi everyone. I've been following this forum for a while and just registered because I am curious about this scenario. So, as the subject suggests, what would happen if you put a healthy person on an APAP, 4 to 20 cmH2O? Let's ignore the fact that this person would probably need some time to adjust because he or she never used an APAP before.
Would the pressure ever rise, or would it remain at 4 cmH2O? If so, does this by default mean that if the pressure is rising, the person on APAP *MUST* have some kind of breathing disorders in their sleep?
I realize this may sound like a dumb question to some of you, but I can't help it, I'm really curious
Would the pressure ever rise, or would it remain at 4 cmH2O? If so, does this by default mean that if the pressure is rising, the person on APAP *MUST* have some kind of breathing disorders in their sleep?
I realize this may sound like a dumb question to some of you, but I can't help it, I'm really curious
Re: Healthy person on APAP - what would happen?
What is "healthy" in your view for this thought exercise?ShadowGallery wrote: ↑Sun May 20, 2018 3:13 pmWould the pressure ever rise, or would it remain at 4 cmH2O? If so, does this by default mean that if the pressure is rising, the person on APAP *MUST* have some kind of breathing disorders in their sleep?
Pressure rises on most apaps for four reasons, snores, flow limitations, hypopneas, and obstructive apneas.
"normal" "healthy" people don't have "perfect" breathing under normal circumstances... so, yes, the pressure would likely rise, and fall.
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Re: Healthy person on APAP - what would happen?
If it helped that "healthy" person sleep better, that healthy person would get great benefit.
-Jeff (AS10/P30i)
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Re: Healthy person on APAP - what would happen?
If set up correctly, your electric bill would go up slightly. Jim
4 to 20 cm, isn't set up correctly!
4 to 20 cm, isn't set up correctly!
Use data to optimize your xPAP treatment!
"The art of medicine consists in amusing the patient while nature cures the disease." Voltaire
"The art of medicine consists in amusing the patient while nature cures the disease." Voltaire
Re: Healthy person on APAP - what would happen?
I think that what's being asked is whether a person who has no known need of xPAP were to use one. I really don't think it would be detrimental in any way. However, doctors don't like to give drugs that are not "needed," so I imagine that this would fall under that umbrella (i.e. a mechanical intervention would be viewed in the same light as a pharmacological one).
On the bottom of the left hand side of page 1131 of the liked article, there is a suggestion that CPAP may help patients with GERD (gastroesophageal reflux disease), even in the absence of OSA. I'm not sure how they would titrate such a patient.
Link ===> https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf ... 05.02447.x
On the bottom of the left hand side of page 1131 of the liked article, there is a suggestion that CPAP may help patients with GERD (gastroesophageal reflux disease), even in the absence of OSA. I'm not sure how they would titrate such a patient.
Link ===> https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf ... 05.02447.x
Re: Healthy person on APAP - what would happen?
OTC meds can do you dangerous harm with their side-effects, even when you need their benefits.
On the other hand, CPAP machines aren't like that at all. They are harmless, unless you drop one on your toe.
Slightly pressurized air is just as harmless as non-pressurized air.
The question of whether someone "has" OSA doesn't matter. The only question is whether someone will benefit from PAP or not. It may help. It may not. But it won't harm.
The question is similar to asking "what if someone puts a bandage on a place where there is no cut?" It may provide no benefit. Or it may protect the area from getting a cut. But it certainly would not hurt anything.
On the other hand, CPAP machines aren't like that at all. They are harmless, unless you drop one on your toe.
Slightly pressurized air is just as harmless as non-pressurized air.
The question of whether someone "has" OSA doesn't matter. The only question is whether someone will benefit from PAP or not. It may help. It may not. But it won't harm.
The question is similar to asking "what if someone puts a bandage on a place where there is no cut?" It may provide no benefit. Or it may protect the area from getting a cut. But it certainly would not hurt anything.
-Jeff (AS10/P30i)
Accounts to put on the foe list: Me. I often post misleading, timewasting stuff.
Accounts to put on the foe list: Me. I often post misleading, timewasting stuff.
Re: Healthy person on APAP - what would happen?
Would the pressure rise? I would say so in most cases but admittedly I'm just guessing.ShadowGallery wrote: ↑Sun May 20, 2018 3:13 pmHi everyone. I've been following this forum for a while and just registered because I am curious about this scenario. So, as the subject suggests, what would happen if you put a healthy person on an APAP, 4 to 20 cmH2O? Let's ignore the fact that this person would probably need some time to adjust because he or she never used an APAP before.
Would the pressure ever rise, or would it remain at 4 cmH2O? If so, does this by default mean that if the pressure is rising, the person on APAP *MUST* have some kind of breathing disorders in their sleep?
I realize this may sound like a dumb question to some of you, but I can't help it, I'm really curious
If it does rise does it by default mean the person had some sort of breathing disorder? I don't think so .
When you get blood work done did you know the acceptable ranges actually vary depending on the lab doing the testing? They do . There are "ranges" that are determined to be "healthy".
Best example is sleep apnea which this forum is all about.
It's normal to have an AHI of 5 or less. An AHI of 5 which is considered normal would cause an APAP most likely to go above 4 cm H20.
10 to 15 cm h20
Re: Healthy person on APAP - what would happen?
Or 4 cm, not being enough for the person hooked up to the machine, (starved for air) would cause breathing to be not normal, and the APAP might respond trying to become normal. Jim
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"The art of medicine consists in amusing the patient while nature cures the disease." Voltaire
"The art of medicine consists in amusing the patient while nature cures the disease." Voltaire
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Re: Healthy person on APAP - what would happen?
Without some positive feedback, it might get old.
People who NEED cpap often have trouble sticking with it.
Why put someone with no breathing disorder on it?
Unless that person has Munchausen's . . .
People who NEED cpap often have trouble sticking with it.
Why put someone with no breathing disorder on it?
Unless that person has Munchausen's . . .
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Re: Healthy person on APAP - what would happen?
I'm no expert but according to this link 3 cm H20 is pressure from normal breathe.
https://www.ebme.co.uk/articles/clinica ... entilation
So 4 cm H20 should actually be a net gain of pressure of breathing.
10 to 15 cm h20
Re: Healthy person on APAP - what would happen?
It actually did this to my sister and her husband some years ago.
The pressure never increased for my sister. I don't think she had OSA...was only complaining of fatigue that eventually was blamed on blood pressure meds because she changed meds and the fatigue went away.
Now her husband...different story. Pressure went up to 10 and stayed there all night and might have gone higher but I limited the max to 10 just for screening purposes. He had all the classic complaints and probably had OSA but he blew it off.
The pressure never increased for my sister. I don't think she had OSA...was only complaining of fatigue that eventually was blamed on blood pressure meds because she changed meds and the fatigue went away.
Now her husband...different story. Pressure went up to 10 and stayed there all night and might have gone higher but I limited the max to 10 just for screening purposes. He had all the classic complaints and probably had OSA but he blew it off.
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Re: Healthy person on APAP - what would happen?
Maybe in the u.s., we breath deeper. JimUSMCVet wrote: ↑Sun May 20, 2018 9:36 pmI'm no expert but according to this link 3 cm H20 is pressure from normal breathe.
https://www.ebme.co.uk/articles/clinica ... entilation
So 4 cm H20 should actually be a net gain of pressure of breathing.
Or in our dreams we run faster requiring more air, I am not comfortable breathing in a mask under 10 cm, for me after 13 years, 15 cm is normal for me.
Use data to optimize your xPAP treatment!
"The art of medicine consists in amusing the patient while nature cures the disease." Voltaire
"The art of medicine consists in amusing the patient while nature cures the disease." Voltaire
Re: Healthy person on APAP - what would happen?
At 4 cm H20 I felt like I couldn't breathe either. It probably all comes down to repetition. I didn't spend more then a night or so at 4. Since then I have learned that giving things a week goes a long way.Goofproof wrote: ↑Sun May 20, 2018 10:09 pmMaybe in the u.s., we breath deeper. JimUSMCVet wrote: ↑Sun May 20, 2018 9:36 pmI'm no expert but according to this link 3 cm H20 is pressure from normal breathe.
https://www.ebme.co.uk/articles/clinica ... entilation
So 4 cm H20 should actually be a net gain of pressure of breathing.
Or in our dreams we run faster requiring more air, I am not comfortable breathing in a mask under 10 cm, for me after 13 years, 15 cm is normal for me.
In the U.S. we are better at everything
10 to 15 cm h20
Re: Healthy person on APAP - what would happen?
We have to be we police the world, with our nose! Sticking it anywhere we can. JimUSMCVet wrote: ↑Sun May 20, 2018 10:13 pmAt 4 cm H20 I felt like I couldn't breathe either. It probably all comes down to repetition. I didn't spend more then a night or so at 4. Since then I have learned that giving things a week goes a long way.Goofproof wrote: ↑Sun May 20, 2018 10:09 pmMaybe in the u.s., we breath deeper. JimUSMCVet wrote: ↑Sun May 20, 2018 9:36 pmI'm no expert but according to this link 3 cm H20 is pressure from normal breathe.
https://www.ebme.co.uk/articles/clinica ... entilation
So 4 cm H20 should actually be a net gain of pressure of breathing.
Or in our dreams we run faster requiring more air, I am not comfortable breathing in a mask under 10 cm, for me after 13 years, 15 cm is normal for me.
In the U.S. we are better at everything
I started at 14.5 cm, the first night no ramp, still recovering from a quad, very sore for three weeks. 13 years later at 15 cm. I do think my chest size got bigger... Felt like my chest way going to blow out.
Good pain med's! Not that I used them much.
Last edited by Goofproof on Sun May 20, 2018 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Use data to optimize your xPAP treatment!
"The art of medicine consists in amusing the patient while nature cures the disease." Voltaire
"The art of medicine consists in amusing the patient while nature cures the disease." Voltaire
Re: Healthy person on APAP - what would happen?
You get it lolGoofproof wrote: ↑Sun May 20, 2018 11:09 pmWe have to be we police the world, with our nose! Sticking it anywhere we can. JimUSMCVet wrote: ↑Sun May 20, 2018 10:13 pmAt 4 cm H20 I felt like I couldn't breathe either. It probably all comes down to repetition. I didn't spend more then a night or so at 4. Since then I have learned that giving things a week goes a long way.Goofproof wrote: ↑Sun May 20, 2018 10:09 pmMaybe in the u.s., we breath deeper. JimUSMCVet wrote: ↑Sun May 20, 2018 9:36 pmI'm no expert but according to this link 3 cm H20 is pressure from normal breathe.
https://www.ebme.co.uk/articles/clinica ... entilation
So 4 cm H20 should actually be a net gain of pressure of breathing.
Or in our dreams we run faster requiring more air, I am not comfortable breathing in a mask under 10 cm, for me after 13 years, 15 cm is normal for me.
In the U.S. we are better at everything
10 to 15 cm h20