Insomnia is ruining my life, cpap is not helping

I've been on APAP about 3 months. hoped it was going to be answer to my prayers but I still can't sleep even though I'm tolerating it pretty well. I'm having sleep where I don't even feel asleep, like somewhere between being asleep and awake (I'm not really awake because I'm sometimes dreaming in these periods). On bad nights I'm sleeping between 3-5 hours with only about 2 hours of that feeling like a moderately deep sleep.

I have tried literally everything bar medication to sleep and I would be happy to try CBT if I feel it would make the slightest bit difference. It's not a head thing but a body thing, my body feels 100% wide awake/overly alert and I know I'm going to have a bad night whenever I'm feeling like this throughout the day or when I wake up. My "sleep mode" body is physically (not mentally) much more relaxed.

The nights where my events are few and far between don't even seem necessarily better than my nights with more events (although I do sleep longer on good nights so mayb that has something to do with it. Mostly I'm getting OBS & HYPS but sometimes some periodic breathing which lasts minutes and CAs. I'm having a lot of memory issues and struggling to function...everything is a huge blur and my recall is terrible. Does this not improve for some people? Do I need to wait longer? I'm considering asking for a sleep aid which I really do not want to resort to.

Any insight appreciated.

Please add your equipment to your profile.
wiki/index.php/Registering_Equipment_in_User_Profile

Are you using software to monitor your therapy? If so what and if not get some.
https://sleep.tnet.com/equipment

Sleep apnea is but one of a long list of culprits for causing insomnia. If your insomnia isn't related to sleep apnea the best cpap therapy in the world isn't going to help but you want to make sure the therapy is optimal.

Sometimes medications have a time and place in the grand scheme of life. Something to have a chat with your doctor about for sure.

Hi Pugsy,

I use sleepyhead, i was going to try to upload some info but didn't know which bits to do.

I don't have any other possible culprits, sleep apnea was the final one...

Thx

I have been struggling with insomnia all my life. I have been on PAP since 2014. I’m not doing any better either. I increased my sleep from 5 hours per night to 7. This is largely due to Pugsy’s advice. She suggested a bipap instead of APAP. This worked for me, but I still feel like I’ve only slept five hours. Also, it is my opinion that the lack of a sleep aid, when needed, may be more damaging that taking a sleep aid. My body doesn’t like being awake all the time. Well prescribed drugs are useful; the lack of them may be harmful. Many people are on anti-depressant or anti-anxiety. The withdrawal is only painful once. Sleeplessness is always painful.

Air_ wrote:Hi Pugsy,

I use sleepyhead, i was going to try to upload some info but didn't know which bits to do.

I don't have any other possible culprits, sleep apnea was the final one...

Thx

The three links below will show you what to share and how to do it.
It is extremely powerful seeing every breath over a night to SEE what is going on.

Do go ahead with posting your data to see if anything jumps out. When you say sleep apnea was the final option, what things have been formally ruled out... thyroid dysfunction, medication or supplement side effect, mood disorder, sleep hygiene issues, pain, RLS or limb movements?

Hi Air,

You might want to look into CBD Oil without the THC (Marijuana) which is legal in all 50 states. If you feel this option is a possibility, as an FYI, I have found this facebook group to be very helpful, https://www.facebook.com/groups/cbdoilusersgroup/. They list the reputable vendors and there are reviews of various products.

The downside is it can be a lot of trial and error to find the right product and dosage as I have found out. However, I have other issues so don't be discouraged by my experience. But last night, I had one of my better nights of sleep so hopefully, this will continue.

If you decide you don't want to take anything, I definitely think trying CBT-I is a good idea as many people have had a good experience with it. Of course, run everything by your doctor.

49er

If you have coverage, I would recommend you go to a sleep disorders clinic where a sleep doctor can go over your case with you individually. I have sleep problems as well and also knew a lot about it, but learned still more from the sleep specialist.

Also, did you have a sleep study in the recent past where they monitored your brain waves? The EEG results may tell you something although of course now that your breathing is unobstructed during the night, it might be different. But it would be interesting to know whether you were starting from a lack of deep sleep, REM or whatever.

Not sure if you have tried magnesium......But I can promise you, if you find the right dosage, you will be able to not only initiate sleep, but stay a sleep longer.......You will want to get the citrate form.......most of the brands will come in 125-150mg per capsule...... the 200mg-350mg, appears to be the appropriate dosage to get the benefits of cortisol and adrenaline suppression, allowing for a more consistent deep sleep......make sure and pay attention to the label.....some brands show the mg dosage but sometimes it might be for more than one capsule serving.......

robz wrote:Not sure if you have tried magnesium......But I can promise you, if you find the right dosage, you will be able to not only initiate sleep, but stay a sleep longer.......You will want to get the citrate form.......most of the brands will come in 125-150mg per capsule...... the 200mg-350mg, appears to be the appropriate dosage to get the benefits of cortisol and adrenaline suppression, allowing for a more consistent deep sleep......make sure and pay attention to the label.....some brands show the mg dosage but sometimes it might be for more than one capsule serving.......

Good suggestion. However, I would caution anyone who may be sensitive to supplements to start at a lower than normal dose of magnesium to see how they react. Which may mean finding a powdered form so the dose can be more easily customized.

49er

Do go ahead with posting your data to see if anything jumps out. When you say sleep apnea was the final option, what things have been formally ruled out... thyroid dysfunction, medication or supplement side effect, mood disorder, sleep hygiene issues, pain, RLS or limb movements?

All that and more, not sure what else I could look into.

You might want to look into CBD Oil without the THC (Marijuana) which is legal in all 50 states. If you feel this option is a possibility, as an FYI, I have found this facebook group to be very helpful, https://www.facebook.com/groups/cbdoilusersgroup/. They list the reputable vendors and there are reviews of various products.The downside is it can be a lot of trial and error to find the right product and dosage as I have found out. However, I have other issues so don't be discouraged by my experience. But last night, I had one of my better nights of sleep so hopefully, this will continue.

I tried a cbd product in the past, didn't really help but it was one of the less expensive, lower mg ones, I'll look into that group thanks.

If you have coverage, I would recommend you go to a sleep disorders clinic where a sleep doctor can go over your case with you individually. I have sleep problems as well and also knew a lot about it, but learned still more from the sleep specialist.

Also, did you have a sleep study in the recent past where they monitored your brain waves? The EEG results may tell you something although of course now that your breathing is unobstructed during the night, it might be different. But it would be interesting to know whether you were starting from a lack of deep sleep, REM or whatever.

Unfortunately not but I have one coming up. Curious to see how it turns out, I'm hoping I'll actually be able to sleep through it.

Not sure if you have tried magnesium......But I can promise you, if you find the right dosage, you will be able to not only initiate sleep, but stay a sleep longer.......You will want to get the citrate form.......most of the brands will come in 125-150mg per capsule...... the 200mg-350mg, appears to be the appropriate dosage to get the benefits of cortisol and adrenaline suppression, allowing for a more consistent deep sleep......make sure and pay attention to the label.....some brands show the mg dosage but sometimes it might be for more than one capsule serving.......

I tried this in the past and it would help a bit in the beginning then eventually stopped working for me.

https://imgur.com/EPfJzJP
https://imgur.com/74H7Zjo
https://imgur.com/jM7iN3w
https://imgur.com/wgQ2SxC
https://imgur.com/Ow4KvIO

Thanks

Air_ wrote:

Do go ahead with posting your data to see if anything jumps out. When you say sleep apnea was the final option, what things have been formally ruled out... thyroid dysfunction, medication or supplement side effect, mood disorder, sleep hygiene issues, pain, RLS or limb movements?

All that and more, not sure what else I could look into.

You might want to look into CBD Oil without the THC (Marijuana) which is legal in all 50 states. If you feel this option is a possibility, as an FYI, I have found this facebook group to be very helpful, https://www.facebook.com/groups/cbdoilusersgroup/. They list the reputable vendors and there are reviews of various products.The downside is it can be a lot of trial and error to find the right product and dosage as I have found out. However, I have other issues so don't be discouraged by my experience. But last night, I had one of my better nights of sleep so hopefully, this will continue.

I tried a cbd product in the past, didn't really help but it was one of the less expensive, lower mg ones, I'll look into that group thanks.

If you have coverage, I would recommend you go to a sleep disorders clinic where a sleep doctor can go over your case with you individually. I have sleep problems as well and also knew a lot about it, but learned still more from the sleep specialist.

Also, did you have a sleep study in the recent past where they monitored your brain waves? The EEG results may tell you something although of course now that your breathing is unobstructed during the night, it might be different. But it would be interesting to know whether you were starting from a lack of deep sleep, REM or whatever.

Unfortunately not but I have one coming up. Curious to see how it turns out, I'm hoping I'll actually be able to sleep through it.

Not sure if you have tried magnesium......But I can promise you, if you find the right dosage, you will be able to not only initiate sleep, but stay a sleep longer.......You will want to get the citrate form.......most of the brands will come in 125-150mg per capsule...... the 200mg-350mg, appears to be the appropriate dosage to get the benefits of cortisol and adrenaline suppression, allowing for a more consistent deep sleep......make sure and pay attention to the label.....some brands show the mg dosage but sometimes it might be for more than one capsule serving.......

I tried this in the past and it would help a bit in the beginning then eventually stopped working for me.

https://imgur.com/EPfJzJP
https://imgur.com/74H7Zjo
https://imgur.com/jM7iN3w
https://imgur.com/wgQ2SxC
https://imgur.com/Ow4KvIO

Thanks

Thanks for posting the data.
It is not clear to me what your issues are.
The data you posted shows that your AHI is very well controlled. The data looks like you are sleeping but maybe I am worong. The areas that you zoomed in are normal. Your respiratory rate looks like you are asleep. Some level of irregular breathing is normal.
Nothing from your data looks abnormal to me but I only have a limited understanding of OSA and its' treatment.

Are there times in your data that you can point to and explain what you feel was not right?

You can disregard the flagged Periodic Breathing ...it's not looking like CSR and it's very brief. Not a big deal.

How come you reduced the pressure settings?

Report dated Jan 2....minimum of 10.5 and max of 14.5
Report dated Jan 13..minimum of 9 and max of 15 but it only went briefly to 13 so the 15 wasn't needed.

Either setting seems to give you a decent report in terms of AHI at least on paper but the minimum of 10.5 seems to give a cleaner report meaning the FLs, RERAs and snores (which aren't included in the AHI but could mean the airway is still trying to collapse) were much more reduced with the higher pressure.

What settings are you using now?

Hi Air_. I know the feelings. Not sleeping is bad enough, but add sleep apnea and it's miserable.

I've had problems sleeping since childhood, and assumed for decades it was insomnia. My mind simply doesn't shut down, especially when I need to sleep. I tried Rx sleep aids; they simply didn't do anything for me except cause lethargy and annoyance at not sleeping. Chemicals that would make other people drowsy or pass out (OTC decongestents, cough/cold PM meds, Ambien and similar, a 5mg dose of marijuana in pill form that my husband swears by) do nothing for me. A low dose of amitriptyline at bedtime helped me for years to fall asleep, but eventually became ineffective.

I've used CBD oil, but at a low dose (a few drops of mild tincture); I didn't notice any effect. I read it may take a full dropper or two, but as someone said, research and trial/error are needed. The bottles are small, and can become expensive as a regular habit. It comes in different strengths. CBD oil is usually less than .03 (.33?) percent THC, and usually made from hemp so it's not illegal. THC seems to be what disturbs sleep rhythms once we're asleep, so don't get CBD oil with high THC (if you have access to medical or recreation MJ). There are a few good articles online.

I've been lectured repeatedly (from medical world) about sleep hygiene, reducing blue light at night, reducing all light at night for hours before bedtime, not watching or reading violent content before bed, getting enough exercise, reducing stress, mindfulness, eating better, deep breathing, yoga, blah blah. Those who can get to sleep on time and stay asleep can be annoying.

What you may want to investigate:
Circadian Rhythm Disorder/DSPD/non-24. A gene dictates our preferred sleep time and amount. In my case, I believed I had insomnia because I couldn't get to sleep each night when I had a typical 8-5 schedule, when I changed schedules, when I traveled, or when I knew I had to get up even earlier the next morning for an important reason. I've always fought being a natural night owl. Even daylight saving time changes mess me up.

I was shocked when a doctor recently diagnosed me with a circadian rhythm disorder and DSPD, delayed sleep phase disorder. This can become non-24 (a body cycle longer than 24 hours so that each day your sleep pattern changes) which causes you to fall asleep later each day. (Often experienced by blind people, with a new med available.) Had never heard of this. Naps don't help. What I discovered is that aside from forced schedules, I CAN sleep a regular night if my body is allowed to sleep when it's ready to sleep. The modern world makes this difficult or impossible. If I miss sleep, I may go to sleep earlier the next night, but after that I'm dragged back to my own pattern. I've lived as a zombie for most of my life in order to meet obligations/expectations.

You may want to visit a sleep medicine doctor to determine whether you really have insomnia. A sleep study with full hook-up will demonstrate what's happening with your brainwaves. Deeper sleep is imperative. Alcohol, sometimes MJ (the THC), diazepam and the like, Rx sleeping pills, can put you to sleep, but the sleep will be shallower, possibly with awakenings. There are many technical sleep issues that could create what seems to be insomnia. Some of us have "different" or mixed-up brain wiring, and lack the luxury of falling asleep when we want and having a deep, restful night. There's a new category of circadian rhythm disorder, and presumably we'll have more studies and information in the years to come.

As an adult, I was also diagnosed with ADD and anxiety. I don't like to overmedicate, but chemistry can help. I went through Cognitive Behavioral Therapy and biofeedback, which helps many people but did nothing for me. I also have other sleep issues, such as acting out my dreams to a degree when the movement switch is supposed to be turned off. Lifelong issue, used to sleepwalk as a kid/teen. Something not right in the old wiring. Weird brain = troubled sleep. When I am ready to sleep, I do deep breathing for 5-8 minutes. I found a pattern that feels good to me: 3-count deep inhalation, 8-count hold, 7-count exhalation, slowly and comfortably. I also take 1mg of liquid melatonin 30 minutes before bed for good measure. (Higher dosage not necessarily more efficacious.)

CPAP alone can't resolve sleep issues, obviously. I hope you'll continue looking for answers outside the box. If I had access to a sharp sleep doctor, I'd be picking his brains. I can say that with a few meds, greater awareness of triggers and the need to slow down at night, CPAP, more freedom of schedule, I began sleeping a whole "night" through and it was more restful. Not every night, but more often. Happiness, less dread of going to bed. But I struggle to keep from going into non-24.

By the way, if you take magnesium, aim for magnesium glycinate. Magnesium citrate can have a laxative effect. I've tried all herbal remedies and supplements. I it may be a placebo effect when it works, but I'm not an expert and have been willing to try everything. We're all different. Some of us have more stubborn brains, minds, and bodies. A horse tranquilizer sounds good at times. lol

Check in again sometime and let us know how you're doing.