DreamStation Reading Higher AHI than System One

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steveinmaine
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DreamStation Reading Higher AHI than System One

Post by steveinmaine » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:03 pm

My father's used a Respironics System One for five years, and it's worked well for him. For the past two years, his average AHI has been 3.7 and 4.5.

Then, in December, since he'd been five years on the same machine, his DME switched him to the new Respironics DreamStation, with the same pressure setting of 6-16 cm.

Now, with the DreamStation, his AHI average is 13.2, with some nights over 20. I checked SleepyHead's numbers with Encore Pro to be sure, and they matched up.

Image

As you can see, on Dec 24th he switched to the new Amara mask, and it worked well with the old System One machine.

On Dec 28th he switched to the DreamStation, and his obstructive apneas went from one or two a night to 40-80 a night. And his clear airway apneas went from 10-20 events a night to just one a month.

The main problem is that the DreamStation, in reading all these obstructive events, jacks up his pressure all the way to the max at 16 cm. This pressure not only causes all sorts of leaks, but wakes him up, and it's really frustrating him.

To top it off, all that pressure isn't stopping the obstructive events, as you can see here.

Image

After the first few weeks, I printed up a couple charts showing the difference, and he left them at his sleep doctor's office, along with the information on his card, but after a month we hadn't heard back a word.

So I printed up more charts, and he took them and his card in to his DME. She said she couldn’t make sense of it, but she forwarded the information to both my father's sleep doctor and to Respironics.

She also suggested what I'd been trying to get him to do - to go back to his old machine for a night. That was March 7, which you can see in the first chart, where he had an AHI of 3.9, right where he'd always been.

Seeing that, she gave him a new DreamStation, in case the first one wasn't working right. But that night showed the same readings as before.

That was three weeks ago, and when my father called her yesterday, she said she hadn't heard back from either his sleep doctor or Respironics, but would contact them again.

The best I can figure, the DreamStation's algorithm is reading his events differently, with more obstructive events and less centrals. It's also reading less PB, so it might be labeling those events as obstructive events.

Image

The RERA has also changed. On the System One it was nearly always between 2.0 and 4.0, and with the DreamStation it's nearly always between 0.2 and 1.5.

Also, and what might be key here, the obstructive events on both machines are nearly always not from long pauses in breathing, but periods of shallow breathing between deep breathing, as seen here.

Image

He has this breathing pattern for a part of most nights, and when I brought it up with his sleep doctor a few years ago, he had my father wear an oximeter for a night. It said his oxygen levels were fine, so the doctor said it wasn't a cause of concern.

But it seems the DreamStation is seeing this same breathing pattern, marking it as obstructive, and trying to use extra pressure to fix it.

I'm sure his doctor would say that as long as he's sleeping well and getting enough oxygen, that's what counts most, and he'd be right. But it's very disconcerting to get so many AHIs, and my father says he'd really like to go a night "without having my mask explode."

So I'm hoping you can clue us in to what's going on and what we might be able to do about it.

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Pugsy
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Re: DreamStation Reading Higher AHI than System One

Post by Pugsy » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:17 pm

I can't see all the settings...is Flex exhale relief being used? If so at what setting?
And if being used or not...does it match with both machines?

To my knowledge Respironics didn't make any changes to the auto adjusting algorithm when they came out with the DreamStation...they only changed the packaging and a few features.

Does your father take any medications that might suppress respiration...like pain meds of some sort?

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steveinmaine
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Re: DreamStation Reading Higher AHI than System One

Post by steveinmaine » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:40 pm

Hi Pugsy, thanks for taking a look at this.

He's not on any medications like that, as for Flex, in SleepyHead, the System One says

RemStar Auto with A-Flex
PAP Mode: APAP (Variable)
Flex Level x1
Flex Mode A-Flex

For the DreamStation it says:

Auto CPAP
PAP Mode: APAP (Variable)

Then I checked the DreamStation screen, and on the Flex setting it says Off, with a padlock.

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Pugsy
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Re: DreamStation Reading Higher AHI than System One

Post by Pugsy » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:51 pm

All things aren't equal....since one is with the Flex set to 1 and the other is with it turned off.

Though to be honest...I don't see that being the cause of such a huge obvious discrepancy in results but you have to change the DreamStation to Flex of 1...just in case.
You can easily unlock the Flex setting.
See this for how to go into the clinical setup menu area and unlock Flex
http://www.apneaboard.com/dreamstation- ... structions

This totally throws out my original idea...that Flex wasn't used on the System One and was used on the DreamStation and Flex was causing the unstable breathing....so now I have to try to think of some other logical reason for what is going on.

This is a first...never seen this much of a difference going from any machine to another to make things so obviously worse. I am going to be scratching my head on this one.
Respironics didn't change the algorithm...and you already changed DreamStation machines just in case the first one was messed up or something and the second one is still as ugly.

Can you get me a screen shot of the detailed report from the night with the System One being used where the AHI is so nice and low? March 7 I think it was.

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steveinmaine
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Re: DreamStation Reading Higher AHI than System One

Post by steveinmaine » Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:07 pm

Yep, it's a stumper, all right. And thanks for the tip on turning on the Flex - I'll do that for tonight.

Here's the night with the System One.

Image

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Pugsy
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Re: DreamStation Reading Higher AHI than System One

Post by Pugsy » Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:21 pm

Any chance your dad has maybe made a significant change in sleeping position? Like staying on his back most of the time?
Probably not..but had to ask.

This is a real puzzler. Part of me wants to say...well just go back to the System One but the other part of me wants to say...what if it is the System One that is acting up and things are really this bad.

I don't like any of this.
I think I would be planting myself down in front of the doctor with all these reports and data and having a heart to heart discussion.

That breathing pattern looks CSRish but the machine didn't flag it which surprises the heck out of me.
Usually it flags stuff rather aggressively and we get minor stuff with bad CSR flags that shouldn't be flagged.
Not the other way around.

The machine is definitely responding like those events are obstructive but I wonder what if the machine has it wrong for some unknown reason. What if they are more central or maybe mixed events (start out central and end up obstructive or the other way around)?
I have seen it one other time and it was with a System One and the machine was flagging centrals stuff as obstructive stuff but it was flagging a truckload of PB/CSR stuff...your dad's isn't doing a truckload of PB/CSR.

I wouldn't hold out for a miracle solution of something as simple as turning Flex on...but do it anyway just in case.
If this were my dad...I would be seeing the doctor and running all this by him.

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Machine: AirCurve™ 10 VAuto BiLevel Machine with HumidAir™ Heated Humidifier
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I may have to RISE but I refuse to SHINE.

If you want to try the Eclipse mask and want a special promo code to get a little off the price...send me a private message.

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steveinmaine
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Re: DreamStation Reading Higher AHI than System One

Post by steveinmaine » Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:33 pm

About the sleep position, he had a bunch of obstructives when he first started treatment, but thanks to SleepyHead, I noticed they were always when he'd rolled onto his back, like in the morning, when he'd rolled over and fallen back asleep. So he put a board in the middle of his bed to keep him on his side, and since then hardly any obstructives.

Thanks again, and I'll get onto my dad to make that appointment soon.

rvc2
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Re: DreamStation Reading Higher AHI than System One

Post by rvc2 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:45 pm

Hello Steveinmaine:

It is uncanny how similar my situation is to your father's when you were dealing with significant discrepancies between pap machines last year. I too have been using a Respironics System One bipap for 4+ years and recently requested and received a replacement from my DME (by navigating a long and very frustrating process between my PCP and the shyster DME; but that's separate story.) The replacement is a Respironics DreamStation Auto BiPap.

Also, coincidentally, I recently tried the Amara View mask but did not have a great experience with it so I went back to the Quattro FX for now until I can get the DreamStation mystery figured out.

I have only used the new DreamStation one night so far because my AHI ballooned up to 13.3 according to SleepyHead. I felt horrible the next day. My AHI on the System One over the course of the past few years has been between 1 and 3. Again, some uncanny similarities to your dad's situation. By the way, the provider settings are the same on the two pap machines.

I realize this thread is well over a year old but I'm hoping you are still receiving notifications from it before I pour too much detail into this post. My question is, did you ever figure out what caused the huge AHI increase when the DreamStation was used? Any useful feedback would be extremely appreciated. Thank you.

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