Battery Backup in 3rd World

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bayareacpap
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Battery Backup in 3rd World

Post by bayareacpap » Mon Oct 12, 2015 11:56 am

I am moving long term to a 3rd world country so I need to explore batteries for my CPAP. I know that this topic has been extensively addressed in general but was hoping to get some advice about my specific situation. From the info on this website, it looks like I will need a car type battery for my home. However, I first wanted to see if I could get some advice about Lithium Ion batteries since I will need them for some of the traveling I will be doing. I have an S9 Autoset and my understanding is that Resmed is a little bit more difficult to deal with when it comes to batteries (I am just learning about all of this so please assume beginner knowledge). My pressure is 9 fixed.

1. Can anyone provide feedback on which Lithium Ion batteries that Resmed says are compliant with their CPAPs that would be good in terms of being durable and lasting a decent amount of time?
2. Are there any types of batteries that are off the shelf for computers etc that would be good for this purpose? I am not sure if I need a "CPAP" battery or if a generic one will work (if it is not against website policy it would be good to know some battery names that people have found to work for camping etc).
3. How many nights can I expect them to last without the humidifier?
4. What cords or equipment will I need to have to hook up battery to CPAP?

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Sir NoddinOff
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Re: Battery Backup in 3rd World

Post by Sir NoddinOff » Mon Oct 12, 2015 12:46 pm

Capnloki is one of the main guys for that:

go to 'members' link up above, type in capnloki and search the many posts. Have a notepad and Google handy cuz it gets deep fast.

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CapnLoki
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Re: Battery Backup in 3rd World

Post by CapnLoki » Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:41 pm

bayareacpap wrote: 1. Can anyone provide feedback on which Lithium Ion batteries that Resmed says are compliant with their CPAPs that would be good in terms of being durable and lasting a decent amount of time?
The problem with ResMed is that they use 24 volts, and most generic battery packs are 12V, while some are 19V for laptops. In addition, resmed uses a special proprietary plug. The solution is to get the 12 to 24V converter, about $85 from resmed and then look for an appropriate 12v battery,
bayareacpap wrote:2. Are there any types of batteries that are off the shelf for computers etc that would be good for this purpose? I am not sure if I need a "CPAP" battery or if a generic one will work (if it is not against website policy it would be good to know some battery names that people have found to work for camping etc).
There are lots of generic 12v batteries, many discussed here.
bayareacpap wrote:3. How many nights can I expect them to last without the humidifier?
With lithium packs, you'll find many designed to the airline limit of about 8 amp-hours. I might guess your use is about 5 amphours in one night without humidity, so two nights is a real stretch. Of course, you can always get several of these packs. There are lithium batteries designed as larger deep cycle batteries, weigh significantly less then lead-acid, although with a serious price premium. As the price goes down, these are getting attractive. And then there's the traditional lead-acid deep cycle batteries that look like car batteries (but they must be "deep cycle"). The newer AGM style lead-acid batteries are the best choice for a home backup system, and this can be sized as big as you like.
bayareacpap wrote:4. What cords or equipment will I need to have to hook up battery to CPAP?
Get the 12-24 converter,and put a "cigarette lighter socket" on the battery.

There's a ton more I could say about this, but you'll have to be more specific in your needs.

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Guest1

Re: Battery Backup in 3rd World

Post by Guest1 » Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:37 pm

In a 3rd world country, the Main power supply may not be kosher. So it would be advisable to run thru a pure sine wave UPS. A simple 500VA UPS from a reputed company like APC would do. And some UPSs have options to add batteries to increase the backup and also have options to configure alarms.

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Re: Battery Backup in 3rd World

Post by Wulfman... » Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:45 pm

bayareacpap wrote:I am moving long term to a 3rd world country ..............
Would that be California by any chance?

Sorry, couldn't resist........since part of your user name is "bayarea".


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archangle
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Re: Battery Backup in 3rd World

Post by archangle » Mon Oct 12, 2015 9:47 pm

Guest1 wrote:In a 3rd world country, the Main power supply may not be kosher. So it would be advisable to run thru a pure sine wave UPS. A simple 500VA UPS from a reputed company like APC would do. And some UPSs have options to add batteries to increase the backup and also have options to configure alarms.
Most UPS's do not modify the incoming voltage at all unless it drops too low. They are "standby" devices. Even if it's a pure sine wave UPS, the UPS is only active when the input power is off. They may do some limited surge protection, but they are not generic power line voltage conditioning.

Line interactive and double conversion UPS's do some more to give a clean line voltage, even if the main power is present.

Pure sine wave is considerably more expensive, less efficient, and not needed by the the S9 machine.

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CapnLoki
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Re: Battery Backup in 3rd World

Post by CapnLoki » Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:41 am

bayareacpap wrote:I am moving long term to a 3rd world country so I need to explore batteries for my CPAP. I know that this topic has been extensively addressed in general but was hoping to get some advice about my specific situation. From the info on this website, it looks like I will need a car type battery for my home.
...
So thinking a bit more leads to some questions: What do you mean by "a decent amount of time"? one night? one week? There are lots of batteries that have been mentioned here - the issue is not so much brand names as form factor. Do you want a one night ultra light pack for flying; by "travel" do you mean hiking into a jungle for a month; or do you need a reliable backup when the power is iffy? Do expect to be off grid for an extended period, or can you recharge daily? Is price an issue or would you gladly pay twice as much for half the weight?

The three scenarios discussed heavily here are overnight travel (hiking or flying), longer term "car camping," and home backup. If you can give us some more info it will help with a solution. Also, recharging will be an issue for you - small packs usually come with a charger, but anything bigger will need a suitable charger.

One more thing - do not get a car battery for anything other than starting a car.

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Choosing a Battery thread: http://www.cpaptalk.com/viewtopic/t1140 ... ttery.html

bayareacpap
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Re: Battery Backup in 3rd World

Post by bayareacpap » Tue Oct 13, 2015 11:48 am

Thanks to everyone for all of the support!! It is really helpful.

Here is the general info: I am going to an African nation. I know I need to get the appropriate plug adapters and to make sure that my equipment takes the appropriate voltage range for the country. I have heard from various blogs that the power is unreliable and the voltage/frequency of the power varies greatly (from 140V-240V on any given day). Given this situation, I have heard people say that I need a automatic voltage regulator to keep the voltage in an appropriate range and to shut down if things get too hairy (if anyone knows anything about this vs. UPS etc it would be very helpful). My long term plan is to use the electrical in the home to charge any batteries I get since I would rather fry a battery than my CPAP or phone etc (I am sure I will get much for info about the power situation once I am there).

CapnLoki - With my limited understanding, I am currently thinking that I need to address 2 situations:

Situation One: I need portable lithium batteries that I can take on the plane. My hope is to have enough charge to be able to get 3-4 nights of sleep using multiple batteries if necessary (the fewer the better). My plan is to use these batteries on the plane and then for relatively short 2-3 day trips into remote villages when I am in country (I can charge them when I get back). I also want to have something that I can buy here and make sure it works so that I can have 2-3 months once I arrive to figure out my longer term solution since I will need some time there to find a battery that works for situation 2.

My issues with Situation One:

1. I am just finding out about Lithium battery restrictions on planes (thanks for the info - I am sure there are many other things like this I do not know about yet). Do you have any recommendations for specific lithium Ion batteries that would last for at least a day or two and have been shown to work with CPAPs?

(I looked up some old posts here but it looks like many of the batteries people were using were too big for air travel or had issues with causing the CPAP to stop working in some cases. Basically, I just need a solution where each battery will work for at least 1 night and where the battery is unlikely to fail (it will be hard to get new ones for a while) and is compatible with the CPAP).

2. I looked at some lithium Ion batteries that are supposedly made for CPAP machines. I am not sure if this is the way to go or if i should try LI Batteries that are used for computers etc. The "CPAP" batteries look expensive and the reviews on some of them are not great. If anyone has a specific experience with some that are good and allowed on a plane, I would really appreciate the info.

Situation Two:

I need some kind of longer term battery for my home. Ideally, it would be able to last at least a week but the longer the better (i.e. 10 days or something). My plan is to charge it at home at night when needed since power is more reliable then (use short term lithium batteries on that night). However, I may need to move it to another location to get charge as power might be more reliable at work. I do not know much about these types of batteries so any help you can provide would be very much appreciated!

Issues with Situation 2:

1. Need battery that can safely be charged in home environment (don't know much about batteries but have heard gases can ben released).
2. Need to know if one type of battery would be safer with power spikes etc.
2. Not sure if newer lithium or AGM batteries would be available there (it might be good to know a ranking of which one I should target first then second etc).
3. Are home based chargers generic for these batteries or do they come specifically for the battery brand? I am not sure if I will be able to buy the charger once I am there.
4. Cost is always an issue but would rather pay more if it is a better solution in terms of safety/longevity characteristics.
5. Would I buy the same CPAP equipment here (Converters etc) no matter which battery I get since I may not know what battery I will buy until I get there?

Please let me know if I can provide you with any more info. If you were me, what would you do regarding the 2 situations?

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Re: Battery Backup in 3rd World

Post by bayareacpap » Tue Oct 13, 2015 11:57 am

Would that be California by any chance?

Sorry, couldn't resist........since part of your user name is "bayarea".
That is hilarious! Yep - it's California and it felt that way last week when the cable kept going out over and over.

bayareacpap
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Re: Battery Backup in 3rd World

Post by bayareacpap » Tue Oct 13, 2015 12:02 pm

I'd make every effort to talk to the embassy or consulate of the country you're going to.
Good advice Julie - will look into this.
Capnloki is one of the main guys for that
Thanks for the info Sir Noddinoff - glad he was able to respond to my post here!!

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sleep_quest
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Re: Battery Backup in 3rd World

Post by sleep_quest » Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:52 am

I'm wondering whether you are flexible with what CPAP unit you will be packing since I understand the converters required by the S9 will use some of the precious power you are trying to conserve. The Phillips Respironics 560 units are similar in functionality to your S9 and they don't require a converter. Perhaps you might consider switching from the Resmed to the PR as part of your battery backup plans. CapnLoki can provide the technical details plus you can get deals on the 560 locally (there are a few members in the bay area on this board who can hook you up) if you are interested in switching.

Also, common advice is to have a back up unit just in case and in your situation I'd highly recommend it. Most times it's a good thing to get a duplicate of what you already have so you can swap out parts between the two units as needed, but maybe in your case you could have both an S9 and a 560...

Just a thought...

d

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CapnLoki
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Re: Battery Backup in 3rd World

Post by CapnLoki » Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:22 am

I'll take question two first ... I'll post later on the other stuff
bayareacpap wrote: Situation Two:

I need some kind of longer term battery for my home. Ideally, it would be able to last at least a week but the longer the better (i.e. 10 days or something). My plan is to charge it at home at night when needed since power is more reliable then (use short term lithium batteries on that night). However, I may need to move it to another location to get charge as power might be more reliable at work. I do not know much about these types of batteries so any help you can provide would be very much appreciated!

Issues with Situation 2:

1. Need battery that can safely be charged in home environment (don't know much about batteries but have heard gases can ben released).
2. Need to know if one type of battery would be safer with power spikes etc.
2. Not sure if newer lithium or AGM batteries would be available there (it might be good to know a ranking of which one I should target first then second etc).
3. Are home based chargers generic for these batteries or do they come specifically for the battery brand? I am not sure if I will be able to buy the charger once I am there.
4. Cost is always an issue but would rather pay more if it is a better solution in terms of safety/longevity characteristics.
5. Would I buy the same CPAP equipment here (Converters etc) no matter which battery I get since I may not know what battery I will buy until I get there?
First, you have to figure out if you can go an extended period without humidity. I don't bring a humidifier on my boat during the summer, but I miss it in the fall. Without humidity, you usage is around 5-8 Amp-hours a night, or 35 to 56 Amp-hours for a week. This means that a "full size" deep cycle battery with a capacity around 100 amp-hours (about 60 pounds) would do the trick. Lead-acid deep cycle batteries don't like to be discharged completely, so think of a 100 AH battery as really having 50, maybe 75 in an emergency. Going further will severely limit long term life. (Of course, you may just use it a few times and leave it behind, in which case beat the crap out of it!) Make sure its labeled "Deep Cycle," starting batteries won't last more than a few deep uses. "Marine" are usually deep cycle, but not necessarily as there are marine starting batteries. "Hybrid" or "dual purpose" can be used if they are cheap!

Lead acid comes in two types - traditional flooded and AGM (gel batteries require too much attention charging so I wouldn't consider them). Flooded require maintenance (adding water) so if you want it to last more than a year or two don't get the "no maintenance" style unless its real cheap. AGM Are greatly preferred because they were designed for fighter planes (can be mounted up side down!) and in normal use don't gas and they are truly zero maintenance. They also have very low "self discharge" so they don't need to be continuously trickle charged. However, they may be very expensive or unavailable at your destination. They can be shipped so you might find a manufacturer with a regional distributor you can connect to. Overcharging can kill an AGM so make sure you use a good charger.

Deep cycle batteries are a "generic commodity" around the world. I you get the 12V converter you'll be able to any 12v battery. (Lithium power packs are more problematical, as I'll explain in another post.) I have a strong preference for the generic 12v world because you can always find chargers, batteries, and other accessories to match. You can charge cell phones and computers, run TV and refrigerators and microwave, etc. You can charge with solar, or with a car alternator. I live the summer off-grid with four batteries (425 amp-hours) and several 100 watt solar panels. I do have to scale back on the size of some of the luxuries but I still have tv, fridge, microwave, computers, etc. I would not consider any appliance that does not run easily on 12v. although there seems to be a market for 19V because many laptops use that.

For charging get a generic three-stage (or more) charger. They sense the battery state and go from constant current to constant voltage to trickle current as appropriate. Addition stages are specialized recovery modes that you hopefully won't need. Some vendors hype bogus stages like "Powering On" so a reputable vendor is better than "7 stage". I have a strong preference for "Battery Tender" brand chargers (but not their batteries!) and often recommend a small or medium size BatteryTender plus a large Sears or Shumacher for fast charging if you think you might only have power one afternoon a week. You might go for the larger BatteryTender (still only 5 amps, I think) so you can get by with only one. You should get familiar with the brands and features and find out who has a presence in your area. BTW, the BatteryTender (and most chargers) can be setup either as UPS (continuous charging with automatic fallback to battery when power drops) or just charge when you have clean power and run on battery, disconnected from power, at night.

Enough for now ... I'll be back later.

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Additional Comments: Pressure 9-20, average ~9.5; often use battery power while off-grid
Hark, how hard he fetches breath . . .  Act II, Scene IV, King Henry IV Part I, William Shakespeare
Choosing a Battery thread: http://www.cpaptalk.com/viewtopic/t1140 ... ttery.html

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ALF
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Re: Battery Backup in 3rd World

Post by ALF » Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:24 am

Last year I spent some time in rural parts of Kenya. I used my 'backup' CPAP, a ResMed S8, which uses 12v DC, as opposed to the 24v of the S9. The adapter for the S9 seems expensive and bulky, but supposedly it has conditioning and protection circuitry. I used a Lithium Polymer battery for traveling, made by BattBag (http://www.battbag.com/). They are terribly expensive, but periodically sell on eBay or Amazon for 50% of list price. The 20 Amp-hour battery pack easily gets me through 2 full nights, but will quit somewhere into the third night (no humidifier). The included charger is bulky, but I think that it will handle iffy AC well. This has worked for me when charging from generators as well as Mains power. I flew a lot, and nobody ever gave me trouble about the battery.

I also had a larger-capacity AGM battery for using when not traveling. The places I typically stayed in did not have power that lasted through the night, so a battery was crucial. An AGM battery, while a bit heavy for traveling, at least isn't as heavy as a full-size lead-acid battery, which can be hard to carry anywhere.

Consider getting a 12v DC cigarette lighter plug charger as well. On a few occasions, I managed to charge my battery while traveling long distances in a car.

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bayareacpap
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Re: Battery Backup in 3rd World

Post by bayareacpap » Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:19 pm

The Phillips Respironics 560 units are similar in functionality to your S9 and they don't require a converter.
Thanks for the info Sleep_Quest! I will check out how much power this option will save me.

bayareacpap
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Re: Battery Backup in 3rd World

Post by bayareacpap » Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:27 pm

Last year I spent some time in rural parts of Kenya
Thanks so much for all of the info and battery recommendation Alf! It's good to know that it worked well in a similar circumstance. If you don't mind, can you let me know where you are at in terms of pressures? I am at 9 so wanted to see how close the actual power use is compared to the Resmed Battery Guide document.