Mask Bouncing on my Face - Just caused insomnia!!

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Jimmycrackhorn
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Mask Bouncing on my Face - Just caused insomnia!!

Post by Jimmycrackhorn » Sat Apr 11, 2015 6:12 am

I have been using this mask.
http://www.clinicalsleep.com/resources/ ... son_review

Sometimes my mind is a little obsessive/compulsive. Like I don't have the disorder but I do have the occasional problem with certain things every once in a while that get stuck in my head.

I have worn this mask probably for a month now, no problems. But last night I was trying to fall asleep on my back and after a certain point my breathing changes like I'm going to snore, and suddenly I breathe out and the mask starts bouncing on my face. It even happened after I tightened it.

And that would shoot me right up out of almost being asleep. After a few times my nerves kicked right up and then I'd have to meditate and calm down just in time to start to snore a little in the mask and then again the mask would start bouncing. Usually I am a side sleeper but this was screwing me up enough to where my nerves were on end when I rolled over to my side so I was freaking out and couldn't fall asleep that way either.

How can I stop my mask from bouncing like that? Help!

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Julie
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Re: Mask Bouncing on my Face - Just caused insomnia!!

Post by Julie » Sat Apr 11, 2015 6:26 am

First, back sleeping will provoke more apneas (we try to avoid it if at all possible), and that would make your pressure go up, and likely cause the mask to lift. Tightening it too much flattens the thin cushion (and creates micro leaks) so therapy will be less effective as well. Can you not sleep on your side? What pressures is your ? machine set at?

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Re: Mask Bouncing on my Face - Just caused insomnia!!

Post by robysue » Sat Apr 11, 2015 8:04 am

Julie wrote:First, back sleeping will provoke more apneas (we try to avoid it if at all possible),
While many people's apnea has a strong positional component, not everybody's does. And if the CPAP's pressure is properly adjusted to deal with your apnea in REM supine sleep, then there is nothing particularly wrong with sleeping on your back while using the machine.
and that would make your pressure go up, and likely cause the mask to lift.
jimmycrackhorn's signature indicates he is using a PR System One Series 60 Pro machine, which is a fixed pressure machine. It ain't gonna increase the pressure due to snores 'cause it ain't got no APAP mode.
Tightening it too much flattens the thin cushion (and creates micro leaks) so therapy will be less effective as well.
This is sound advice: Tightening the headgear can indeed flatten the cushion and cause the mask to lift.

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Re: Mask Bouncing on my Face - Just caused insomnia!!

Post by robysue » Sat Apr 11, 2015 8:44 am

Jimmycrackhorn,

I've got a few questions and a few observations:

You write:
Jimmycrackhorn wrote: But last night I was trying to fall asleep on my back and after a certain point my breathing changes like I'm going to snore, and suddenly I breathe out and the mask starts bouncing on my face.
Your signature shows that you are using a PR System One Series 60 Pro, which is a straight CPAP machine that records full efficacy data. So, if your signature is correct, we know that the problem was NOT triggered by the machine increasing the pressure because of snoring.

Unless, perhaps, you were using the ramp mode----the PR S1 APAPs use an "intelligent" ramp that does respond to events by bumping the pressure up 1cm before continuing to gradually ramp up the pressure. I'm not sure if the PR S1 Pro model's ramp behaves that way. So were you using the ramp at the time?
I have worn this mask probably for a month now, no problems. But last night I was trying to fall asleep on my back ....
Usually I am a side sleeper
Any particular reason you were trying to get to sleep on your back instead of your usual side sleeping position? Some people do have more problems with snoring and with apneas while on their back, and while the machine should take care of those problems, some events do get through the CPAP defenses.
I have been using this mask.
http://www.clinicalsleep.com/resources/ ... son_review
...

I have worn this mask probably for a month now, no problems.
When was the last time the mask cushion was cleaned? Have you replaced the mask cushion yet?

Problems with mask instability increase when the cushion is not clean or if your face is not clean.

Problems with mask instabilty also increase when the cushion starts to wear out. Some people can use the same cushion for several months, others need to change them more frequently.
But last night I was trying to fall asleep on my back and after a certain point my breathing changes like I'm going to snore, and suddenly I breathe out and the mask starts bouncing on my face. It even happened after I tightened it.
Have you looked at the data for the night? If so, does the machine register any snores around the time this was happening? And what does the leak data look like?

And is there any chance that you were opening your mouth when you were starting to snore? Some people only snore when their mouth is open; other people can snore even with a closed mouth. It's important to try to establish whether your mouth was open or closed when this was happening.

If your mouth was open far enough to create a real leak, then the machine would compensate for the leak by pushing more air into the semi-closed system in order to maintain the given pressure setting. And more air being pumped into the system can lead to the mask bouncing up and down. (Blowing more air into the system in an effort to maintain pressure in the presence of a large leak can increase the unintentional leaking; which is why the PR APAP machines will decrease the pressure setting in the presence of an official large leak. I don't know what the PR Pro machines do in the presence of an official large leak.)

Finally to go back to the original statement of the problem:
But last night I was trying to fall asleep on my back and after a certain point my breathing changes like I'm going to snore, and suddenly I breathe out and the mask starts bouncing on my face.
...
And that would shoot me right up out of almost being asleep. After a few times my nerves kicked right up and then I'd have to meditate and calm down just in time to start to snore a little in the mask and then again the mask would start bouncing. Usually I am a side sleeper but this was screwing me up enough to where my nerves were on end when I rolled over to my side so I was freaking out and couldn't fall asleep that way either.
The almost snores themselves might be what was causing you to "shoot right up out of almost being asleep." In other words, the fact that you noticed the mask bouncing may have been less important than the fact that you were catching yourself starting to snore just as you were falling asleep.

That happens to me sometimes.

Pre-cpap I would often start to snore very lightly just as I was falling asleep. It sounded like the soft purring of a cat. In fact hubby called them "robin purrs" and they were, in a wierd way comforting to me: They happen only when I'm very relaxed and almost asleep---they're still a "problem" when I'm doing conscious yoga relaxation in shavasana (corpse pose) and they can even happen when I'm doing conscious yoga relaxation in crocodile pose. Pre-cpap if I was trying to get to sleep and the "robin-purrs" started, it was a good thing---it meant I was almost asleep and I'd fully relax into sleep while quietly purr-snoring.

Now that I'm on PAP, however, the "robin-purrs" wind up waking me back up, often with a sensation of shooting me right up out of almost being asleep. In my case, the brain is not focusing on mask movement, but rather, my unconscious (and conscious) brain has a significant fear of aerophagia since it's been a huge problem for me right from the start of PAPing. And I do use an Auto Bi-PAP and I do know that my machine can and does score the "robin-purrs" as VS snores if they go on long enough or get loud enough and, hence, increases the pressure in response to them. So every time I catch myself starting to "robin-purr", I tend to wake up pretty fast in an effort to prevent the "robin-purrs" from happening so that I don't have to deal with a pressure increase. On a bad night, this can happen pretty frequently at the start of the night.

In my case, the best thing I can do is to change my sleep position as soon as the "robin-purring" starts to be an issue. On some nights that means changing position immediately following the first time it happens.

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Re: Mask Bouncing on my Face - Just caused insomnia!!

Post by Wulfman... » Sat Apr 11, 2015 11:45 am

robysue wrote:
Julie wrote:First, back sleeping will provoke more apneas (we try to avoid it if at all possible),
While many people's apnea has a strong positional component, not everybody's does. And if the CPAP's pressure is properly adjusted to deal with your apnea in REM supine sleep, then there is nothing particularly wrong with sleeping on your back while using the machine.
and that would make your pressure go up, and likely cause the mask to lift.
jimmycrackhorn's signature indicates he is using a PR System One Series 60 Pro machine, which is a fixed pressure machine. It ain't gonna increase the pressure due to snores 'cause it ain't got no APAP mode.
Tightening it too much flattens the thin cushion (and creates micro leaks) so therapy will be less effective as well.
This is sound advice: Tightening the headgear can indeed flatten the cushion and cause the mask to lift.
Actually, those machines are suppose to have a "APAP trial" mode which lasts for 30 nights and then reverts to straight CPAP. The trial mode can supposedly be reset and used for about 5 times. If Jimmy is using that feature, then it's quite possible.


Den

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archangle
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Re: Mask Bouncing on my Face - Just caused insomnia!!

Post by archangle » Sat Apr 11, 2015 11:56 am

Jimmycrackhorn wrote:But last night I was trying to fall asleep on my back and after a certain point my breathing changes like I'm going to snore, and suddenly I breathe out and the mask starts bouncing on my face. It even happened after I tightened it.
PRS1 machines do that for some reason. I guess they're just rough in terms of regulating the pressure. You may have to get used to it. Try wearing the mask while awake and changing from inhale to exhale and/or suddenly stopping an inhale or exhale mid breath and see if the mask jumps around like that.

You may find the problem is less if you turn off Flex.

ResMed S9 machines are somewhat gentler in terms of this for some reason. I don't know for sure whether the ResMed A10 machines are the same, but I presume they are.
Julie wrote:First, back sleeping will provoke more apneas (we try to avoid it if at all possible), and that would make your pressure go up, and likely cause the mask to lift. Tightening it too much flattens the thin cushion (and creates micro leaks) so therapy will be less effective as well. Can you not sleep on your side? What pressures is your ? machine set at?
I think the disadvantages of back sleeping are much less than Julie implies. Your titration study probably set your CPAP pressure while sleeping on your back, and for most people, you can adjust your CPAP to work well despite back sleeping. However, staying off your back may be of some help.

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Re: Mask Bouncing on my Face - Just caused insomnia!!

Post by Jimmycrackhorn » Sat Apr 11, 2015 6:54 pm

So basically it sound like my machine is crap? Is that kinda the consensus here?

No Apap. I don't think I have ramp on, and what is Flex?

The setting is on 10. Can I adjust the setting to make it a tiny bit stronger like 11 or 12? I know there's probably an admin function.

And usually I sleep on my side, yes. But the problem was last night my anxiety was a bit high, and I like to meditate almost to the point of sleep or deep relaxation on my back and then turn over to my side. Needless to say that was when it kept happening. Like I said, I hadn't noticed it before so maybe my sleep anxiety was a bit higher last night....

By the way, the mask wasn't jumping on it's own - it would happen when I exhaled a particular way, and very rarely, but it always seemed to happen right when I was about to get close to sleepytime. And that is why is was so unnerviing. It was like a "F--- You, you're not gonna fall asleep!" alarm...

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Re: Mask Bouncing on my Face - Just caused insomnia!!

Post by Pugsy » Sat Apr 11, 2015 7:07 pm

Jimmycrackhorn wrote:what is Flex?
Exhale relief....settings available on the cpap machine CFlex +.....1, 2 and 3 with the most relief being 3.
http://cflexplus.respironics.com/
May or may not be available to you but easy enough to turn on in the clinical setup menu area if it is turned off. If you don't know how to get to the clinical setup menu this link takes you to a page that explains how to get to the clinical setup menu which is also where you can change the pressure.
http://www.apneaboard.com/pr-system-one ... structions

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Re: Mask Bouncing on my Face - Just caused insomnia!!

Post by chunkyfrog » Sat Apr 11, 2015 7:10 pm

No, not crap. You have a Pro, which is single pressure, but still gives therapy data.
If you had a Plus, that one has no data other than hours used. Still can push air, but no feedback.

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Re: Mask Bouncing on my Face - Just caused insomnia!!

Post by robysue » Sat Apr 11, 2015 7:19 pm

Jimmycrackhorn wrote:So basically it sound like my machine is crap? Is that kinda the consensus here?
Your machine is NOT crap. It is a full efficacy data fixed pressure machine. While a straight CPAP is not quite as flexible as an APAP, there's nothing wrong with fixed pressure, and many people actually sleep better when they don't have to deal with constantly changing pressures.

Also---as Den points out, your machine does have a time limited APAP-trial mode that is intended to be used for a few days to help tweak the fixed pressure setting.

Your machine is also fully compatible with SleepyHead and if install SleepyHead on your computer and learn to download your data, you'll be amazed at just how much information your PR System One Pro can give you about the effectiveness of your therapy.
I don't think I have ramp on, and what is Flex?
Flex is the PR version of exhalation relief. It provides up to about a 2cm reduction in pressure at the beginning of your exhalations. The actual amount the pressure is lowered depends on both the Flex setting and the forcefulness of the exhalation.

When you look at the LCD when the machine is OFF, what does it say (if anything) in the upper right corner of the screen? If it doesn't say C-Flex+ or something similar, it may be that the tech who set your machine up turned Flex off in the clinical menu. Flex is a comfort setting, and if you want to try it and you need help getting into the clinical menu, let us know.
The setting is on 10. Can I adjust the setting to make it a tiny bit stronger like 11 or 12? I know there's probably an admin function.
It requires getting into the clinical menu. While the DMEs and many sleep docs will tell patients that under no circumstances is a patient allowed to change the settings, the fact is that the clinical guide to your machine is readily available and if you really want to make the pressure a tiny bit stronger, there's no real reason NOT to learn how to get into the clinical menu and manage your settings yourself.
And usually I sleep on my side, yes. But the problem was last night my anxiety was a bit high, and I like to meditate almost to the point of sleep or deep relaxation on my back and then turn over to my side. Needless to say that was when it kept happening. Like I said, I hadn't noticed it before so maybe my sleep anxiety was a bit higher last night....
A question: Before you started CPAP, did you ever "almost snore" or start to snore quietly while you were meditating before going to sleep?
By the way, the mask wasn't jumping on it's own - it would happen when I exhaled a particular way, and very rarely, but it always seemed to happen right when I was about to get close to sleepytime. And that is why is was so unnerviing. It was like a "F--- You, you're not gonna fall asleep!" alarm...
Masks can move around a small bit in a fashion that follows our inhalations and exhalations. And if Flex is turned on, it's also possible that the increase back up to your prescribed pressure of 10 was what you were noticing. And deep breathing, which moves more air through the mask, may also cause the mask to move a bit more than normal breathing. Perhaps you were also breathing much deeper while meditating last night.

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Re: Mask Bouncing on my Face - Just caused insomnia!!

Post by archangle » Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:34 am

Jimmycrackhorn wrote:So basically it sound like my machine is crap? Is that kinda the consensus here?
Nope, not crap. It's sort of inherent in the way CPAP works. Some machines do it more than others. It doesn't bother most people.

The ResMed S9 doesn't do that "pumping" as much as the PRS1 machines for me, but it still does it a bit.

Turning off Flex, if it's on, may make this worse, but PRS1 machines still do this a bit even without flex.

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Re: Mask Bouncing on my Face - Just caused insomnia!!

Post by Jimmycrackhorn » Mon May 04, 2015 6:44 pm

Basically I think it might just be the mask. I have tried everything and no results. It still bounces at the most inappropriate time. Not only that but I am starting to not like this mask anyway, even though on my side it doesn't bounce as much.

Time to try to go back to the Mirage Fx if I can get it fixed (posted in another thread about that).

I know I'm not going to sleep on my back, per-se, but I REALLY like going ALMOST to sleep on my back and rolling over when I am pretty much entering light sleep, which, incidentally is right when that damn mask I have now starts that bouncing shit which is like nails on a chalkboard.

By the way, thank you all for your replies. I did try the flex setting etc. It's just this mask and my face don't agree. But at least now I know how to get into my Admin functions.

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