? For the battery powered gurus

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Inspectorgene
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? For the battery powered gurus

Post by Inspectorgene » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:47 pm

Would this be a viable option for compact 12v power for a CPAP?

Tenergy 51153 Propel Ultra Portable 12000mAh Lithium-Polymer Jump Starter Power Bank Car Kit


http://www.neweggflash.com/Product/9SIA ... Id=1411312

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CapnLoki
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Re: ? For the battery powered gurus

Post by CapnLoki » Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:51 pm

If you believe the specs on this then yes, it might be enough to power a CPAP. It would help a lot if you would share the type of machine you use and the settings, whether you want to use a humidifier, and how long you want it to last.

I seriously doubt this battery can "jump start a car 30 times" and thus I'm inclined to mistrust all of the specs. For instance, it never actually says that the 12000mAh is measured at 12 Volts; it could be at 5 V as some other similar batteries are listed. It could also be at 3 volts, which is the voltage of the individual cells. Something like this is likely, since a "proper" 12V LiFePo4 12 Ah battery weighs about 3 pounds. Even the raw Lithium Polymer cells would weigh considerably more than the listed weight. BTW, the manufacturer site does not explicitly list the cells or the watt-hour capacity, but at least they don't make silly claims of starting 30 cars.

My hunch is that this would get you through one night, without humidifier but even that is marginal. Its possible that it would have to use the jumper output because the 12V output is limited to 2 Amps. I would also consider the LiFePO4 version of this (search "Tenergy SideKick" on Amazon) since this seems to be safer that Lithium Polymer.

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Inspectorgene
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Re: ? For the battery powered gurus

Post by Inspectorgene » Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:54 pm

Thanks for the reply Cap.

The spare machine I have is a Resmed Series 8 Autoset II that I want to experiment with, but if I am correct, I have to acquire a resmed battery adapter to be able to run on 12v due to possible rev. polarity?

I would not plan on using the humidifier with the battery.

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Merlin7
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Re: ? For the battery powered gurus

Post by Merlin7 » Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:56 pm

Hi

My advice is do not use Lithium Polymer Batteries in your home on a medical device, or anywhere for that matter.

LIPO batteries are very dangerous if used incorrectly and can easily catch fire if punctured or over charged.

I use LIPO (lithium polymer) on my remote UAV and they need very careful charging and discharging, you can't drop the power reserve below 3 or the battery will be dead forever.

I would suggest that you google LIPO batteries and how to charge, store and use them. After seeing some of the YouTube videos of them catching fire, you will realise why they are NOT for use in medical equipment. You will not get these on an aircraft either, far to dangerous.

Hope this helps scotch the idea of using them.

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palerider
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Re: ? For the battery powered gurus

Post by palerider » Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:20 pm

Merlin7 wrote:My advice is do not use Lithium Polymer Batteries in your home on a medical device, or anywhere for that matter.
ah, what's a little uncontrolled combustion amongst friends???

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CapnLoki
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Re: ? For the battery powered gurus

Post by CapnLoki » Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:03 pm

I never understood why a $100 device was needed to "reverse polarity." Nonsense like this makes me happy I use Respironics which takes 12V directly with a $25 cable.

The S8 family of pumps use more power than the S9 - even at a pressure of 10 you could need 6-7 AmpHours for a night. Higher pressures would mean more load- at 16 its 10 AmpHours for the night. So its important to know if this battery is really 12 aH at 12 volts, or, as I suspect, is more like 5 or 8.

So why do you want a Lithium battery? if its home backup or car-camping an AGM battery like the one I mention in a recent thread is much more bang for the buck. If its flying a LiPo needs to be flight certified with the watt-hours listed.

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archangle
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Re: ? For the battery powered gurus

Post by archangle » Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:08 am

Merlin7 wrote:Hi

My advice is do not use Lithium Polymer Batteries in your home on a medical device, or anywhere for that matter.

LIPO batteries are very dangerous if used incorrectly and can easily catch fire if punctured or over charged.

I use LIPO (lithium polymer) on my remote UAV and they need very careful charging and discharging, you can't drop the power reserve below 3 or the battery will be dead forever.

I would suggest that you google LIPO batteries and how to charge, store and use them. After seeing some of the YouTube videos of them catching fire, you will realise why they are NOT for use in medical equipment. You will not get these on an aircraft either, far to dangerous.

Hope this helps scotch the idea of using them.
As long as you use the manufacturer's power supply, and don't tinker with the sealed battery pack, most modern lithium batteries are pretty safe. They have circuitry that monitors the batteries and "blows a fuse" if the battery has been overcharged, undercharged, or otherwise abused in a way that makes them likely to burn.

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archangle
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Re: ? For the battery powered gurus

Post by archangle » Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:10 am

Inspectorgene wrote:Thanks for the reply Cap.

The spare machine I have is a Resmed Series 8 Autoset II that I want to experiment with, but if I am correct, I have to acquire a resmed battery adapter to be able to run on 12v due to possible rev. polarity?

I would not plan on using the humidifier with the battery.
I've heard S8 and many Respironics machines use the same DC connector, but opposite polarity.

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Please enter your equipment in your profile so we can help you.
Click here for information on the most common alternative to CPAP.
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Inspectorgene
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Re: ? For the battery powered gurus

Post by Inspectorgene » Sat Dec 06, 2014 6:00 am

CapnLoki wrote:I never understood why a $100 device was needed to "reverse polarity." Nonsense like this makes me happy I use Respironics which takes 12V directly with a $25 cable.

The S8 family of pumps use more power than the S9 - even at a pressure of 10 you could need 6-7 AmpHours for a night. Higher pressures would mean more load- at 16 its 10 AmpHours for the night. So its important to know if this battery is really 12 aH at 12 volts, or, as I suspect, is more like 5 or 8.

So why do you want a Lithium battery? if its home backup or car-camping an AGM battery like the one I mention in a recent thread is much more bang for the buck. If its flying a LiPo needs to be flight certified with the watt-hours listed.

My setting is 12.

I want something for backpacking, so I need the lightest available option.

I may have to look for a different second hand machine that is easier to operate in the wild.

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Merlin7
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Re: ? For the battery powered gurus

Post by Merlin7 » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:22 am

For low weight and safety you might want to look at LiFeP04 batteries. They are safer and lighter than LIPO batteries.

Arch is right about cut off and overcharging safety. The beauty of LIPO's is that they can discharge a very high amperage very quickly in short bursts. I use 22,000mah batteries on my flying UAV and they are made up of 6 cells wired in series, but I wouldn't call them light.

Just google LiFe batteries and see for yourself.

Battery technology is moving forward in leaps and bounds, so tomorrow there might be a whole new technology out there.

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CapnLoki
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Re: ? For the battery powered gurus

Post by CapnLoki » Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:26 am

I dug around the tenergy.com site trying to find the true capacity of this unit (or of other multi-voltage powerpacks) and came up with nothing definitive. However, from the weight and cells available, its impossible for the pack to be 12 Amp-Hours and still weigh under a pound. I did find a detailed review on NewEgg that measured the battery at "2782mAh discharge was at an average of 487ma and took 5:49 from 12.5 to 9.0V (average 11.54V). That comes out to 32.1 Watt-hours..." This would would make this battery unsuitable for one night on an S8. The pump would probably shutdown around 11V, so the usable charge is around 2 Amp-hours. You'll have trouble find a pump that is that frugal on power. My PRS1 560 uses 4 aH a night at pressure 9.

If I were back-packing, I would look for a LiFePO4 12V replacement battery, designed as a drop-in replacement for an older technology. This will allow you to charge from automotive chargers and even directly off an alternator (i.e. through a cigarette lighter socket) or from a generic solar setup. Any charger and wiring would also be compatible with a much cheaper AGM for use at home or car-camping. A search of "Tenergy 12V" would yield a number of candidates. A 10 Ah should be around $160 and weigh a bit over 2.5 pounds.

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Drowsy Dancer
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Re: ? For the battery powered gurus

Post by Drowsy Dancer » Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:13 am

Try Paul C. Buff Vagabond Mini (designed to power strobe lights):

http://www.paulcbuff.com/vm120.php

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Finster63
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Re: ? For the battery powered gurus

Post by Finster63 » Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:10 am

My setting is 12.

I want something for backpacking, so I need the lightest available option.

I may have to look for a different second hand machine that is easier to operate in the wild.
I also have an S8, and I also want to take it backpacking... Did you ever find a solution?

This is what I'm trying:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=102743&p=963219#p963219
Home: ResMed S8 Escape II
Backpacking: PR System One REMstar 60 Series Plus with the PowerAdd 32000mAh battery:http://www.cpaptalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=103170&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
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CapnLoki
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Re: ? For the battery powered gurus

Post by CapnLoki » Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:10 pm

The lightest batteries you're going to find are Lithium based. Most of the early versions marketed as "Lithium-Ion" and "lithium-Polymer" have safety issues and the cell voltage isn't a good fit for 12V devices. Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) is safe and the cell voltage allows for drop-in replacement of traditional lead-acid batteries, meaning they work with all normal 12V devices, and charge from regular auto, trickle, and solar chargers. They are a bit heavier than lithium-ion, but make up for that with a better shelf life, and the ability to hold a 12V level almost to total discharge (plus they don't burst into flames!).

The result is the best you can do is figure out how much charge you need, and then look for a LiFePO4 12V battery that matches that. You don't say what pressure you run your S8 at, or how many nights you want, but according to the ResMed doc at "10" it will use about 5 Amp-hours a night. As I mentioned above, a 10AH battery should weigh in at 2.5 pounds.

I don't know why the PowerAdd only gave you 4 hours unless you were running at high pressure. I must say that none of the power packs designed for the cell/tablet market have worked out well for our needs. I know you don't want to hear about alternate pumps, but a Respironics will be a bit more efficient, and the simple power cord will save you about a pound.

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Machine: DreamStation Auto CPAP Machine
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Additional Comments: Pressure 9-20, average ~9.5; often use battery power while off-grid
Hark, how hard he fetches breath . . .  Act II, Scene IV, King Henry IV Part I, William Shakespeare
Choosing a Battery thread: http://www.cpaptalk.com/viewtopic/t1140 ... ttery.html

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Finster63
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Re: ? For the battery powered gurus

Post by Finster63 » Sun Dec 21, 2014 12:45 am

Thanks CapnLoki!

I run the S8 at pressure level 9, and I need 1 night at a bare minimum - would prefer 2 or 3 (8 hours of sleep each night).

I was thinking that the DC 12 adaptor caused the inefficiency?

So if the S8 draws about 5 amp-hours per night, and the PowerAdd has 32 amp-hours (32,000mah), it should last 6+ days???
Not sure about the math on this.

Based on your recommendation, I've started researching LiFePo4 batteries, but I ran into this review:
One problem with all Lithium batteries (as far as I have seen) is that they cannot be discharged too far or they will be not be rechargeable. I checked Battery Tender's warranty and if the battery is discharged below 8 volts it cannot be recharged and the warranty will not cover replacement. Most manufacturer's of conventional Lead-Acid, AGM and Gel batteries for similar applications will replace a discharged or dead battery that cannot be recharged if it is under warranty.
The review was for this battery:
http://smile.amazon.com/Battery-Tender- ... dp_product

Would my CPAP discharge the battery below the 8 volts? or would it stop as soon as it went below 12v?

I doubt that I would go with Respironics due to their larger size, but the DeVilbass IntelliPAP looks promising!
https://www.cpap.com/productpage/devilb ... ptions-tab
Home: ResMed S8 Escape II
Backpacking: PR System One REMstar 60 Series Plus with the PowerAdd 32000mAh battery:http://www.cpaptalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=103170&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
Travel: Zzz-PAP 'Silent Traveler'