CPAP natural un-selection.

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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andy5805
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CPAP natural un-selection.

Post by andy5805 » Fri Oct 24, 2014 2:13 pm

I'm not one for eugenics, I think anyone has the right to live and be happy - I mean that.

but I can tell you this - nature is far less kind than I am- If this OSA had happened to some of our great grandparents, our great great grandparents, we would not be here. End of (or "period" as the USA say). It's a fact because its nasty and it takes people out. And it's not just about death and that, what if your great granddad was half cut/half dead on untreated OSA so your great gran to would-be thought what a tired old man and never looked at him again, it's back to the future stuff I know , but the fact remains, we are reversing natural selection.

so while I'm thankful for my place in the world and CPAP - I can tell you that nature is against us, were it left alone, it'd take care of us, and everyone would be born with big chins, tiny tongues, no uvula - it'd happen.

so this begs the philosophical question, do we reproduce? for me it's easy- no cause cats are better.

but it seems to me we're coming up with machines to counter evolution's way of dealing with this problem, which in truth is an anatomical defect. And that bothers me. Obviously I'm overjoyed to be here and not a victim, but truth be told, I shouldn't necessarily be here, it is more like, I was born at a time when I could be here. Eternal gratitude does not come close.

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Re: CPAP natural un-selection.

Post by MbMinx » Fri Oct 24, 2014 2:17 pm

There are a lot of modern "inventions" that un-do natural selection. Fertility treatments come to mind. As do seat-belt laws. Most modern medical treatment, really.
I'm very glad for the advances in modern technology.

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Re: CPAP natural un-selection.

Post by Julie » Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:16 pm

With all due respect, that whole idea sounds fairly whacky to me, never mind bordering on eugenic thinking.

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Re: CPAP natural un-selection.

Post by Janknitz » Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:23 pm

OK, so my mom had severe sleep apnea (very apparent from trying to share a hotel room with her--despite ear plugs), it was never diagnosed or treated. Yet here I am. And I have probably had severe sleep apnea my entire life, yet I have two HEALTHY children.

The flaw in your theory is that sleep apnea doesn't kill quickly. It's a very slow disease. The serious effects aren't felt for decades. So "natural selection" doesn't play a role in the common form of OSA. Most people are past reproductive age when they are diagnosed and treated.
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Re: CPAP natural un-selection.

Post by Guest » Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:33 pm

andy5805 wrote:If this OSA had happened to some of our great grandparents, our great great grandparents, we would not be here.
Are you thinking that OSA wasn't discovered until you were born?

I believe it's like when people died of old age at 40 cuz we didn't know what killed them tho that was prob heart attack or stroke.; OSA existed it just didn't have a formal name. They were snorers, well some of them snored.

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Re: CPAP natural un-selection.

Post by Wulfman... » Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:35 pm

andy5805 wrote:I'm not one for eugenics, I think anyone has the right to live and be happy - I mean that.

but I can tell you this - nature is far less kind than I am- If this OSA had happened to some of our great grandparents, our great great grandparents, we would not be here. End of (or "period" as the USA say). It's a fact because its nasty and it takes people out. And it's not just about death and that, what if your great granddad was half cut/half dead on untreated OSA so your great gran to would-be thought what a tired old man and never looked at him again, it's back to the future stuff I know , but the fact remains, we are reversing natural selection.

so while I'm thankful for my place in the world and CPAP - I can tell you that nature is against us, were it left alone, it'd take care of us, and everyone would be born with big chins, tiny tongues, no uvula - it'd happen.

so this begs the philosophical question, do we reproduce? for me it's easy- no cause cats are better.

but it seems to me we're coming up with machines to counter evolution's way of dealing with this problem, which in truth is an anatomical defect. And that bothers me. Obviously I'm overjoyed to be here and not a victim, but truth be told, I shouldn't necessarily be here, it is more like, I was born at a time when I could be here. Eternal gratitude does not come close.
Want to re-think that statement? They probably did! Most of the folks who have OSA are middle-age to older. How many "old" folks (relatives) have you been around at a family get-together like Thanksgiving or Christmas or some other face-stuffing, belly-busting, belt-loosening feast? In my younger days, after the meal, many of them dozed off in the chairs, couches, recliners, etc......and maybe snored.

There were always lots of "rotund" folks in past generations. Potential OSA sufferers. It's not just a recent "health issue". You only have to look at some of the old photographs or paintings and see for yourself......men AND women.

OK, now that we've set that scenario....... Most of the children have been born to younger parents.....usually younger than 40......more like in their 20s and 30s. Those children were born to pre-OSA parents. SO......they SURVIVED......and brought forth more generations of potential OSA sufferers. HOLY CRAP!......IT'S AN EPIDEMIC! (now)


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andy5805
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Re: CPAP natural un-selection.

Post by andy5805 » Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:49 pm

Guest wrote:
andy5805 wrote:If this OSA had happened to some of our great grandparents, our great great grandparents, we would not be here.
Are you thinking that OSA wasn't discovered until you were born?

I believe it's like when people died of old age at 40 cuz we didn't know what killed them tho that was prob heart attack or stroke.; OSA existed it just didn't have a formal name. They were snorers, well some of them snored.
no I'm thinking that fewer people with OSA from the time of our grand parents would have survived / "made it" than us because we have the machines to help us, and that if we didn't fewer of us would continue, and therefore more would be born with "right" anatomy

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Re: CPAP natural un-selection.

Post by andy5805 » Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:50 pm

Wulfman... wrote:
andy5805 wrote:I'm not one for eugenics, I think anyone has the right to live and be happy - I mean that.

but I can tell you this - nature is far less kind than I am- If this OSA had happened to some of our great grandparents, our great great grandparents, we would not be here. End of (or "period" as the USA say). It's a fact because its nasty and it takes people out. And it's not just about death and that, what if your great granddad was half cut/half dead on untreated OSA so your great gran to would-be thought what a tired old man and never looked at him again, it's back to the future stuff I know , but the fact remains, we are reversing natural selection.

so while I'm thankful for my place in the world and CPAP - I can tell you that nature is against us, were it left alone, it'd take care of us, and everyone would be born with big chins, tiny tongues, no uvula - it'd happen.

so this begs the philosophical question, do we reproduce? for me it's easy- no cause cats are better.

but it seems to me we're coming up with machines to counter evolution's way of dealing with this problem, which in truth is an anatomical defect. And that bothers me. Obviously I'm overjoyed to be here and not a victim, but truth be told, I shouldn't necessarily be here, it is more like, I was born at a time when I could be here. Eternal gratitude does not come close.
Want to re-think that statement? They probably did! Most of the folks who have OSA are middle-age to older. How many "old" folks (relatives) have you been around at a family get-together like Thanksgiving or Christmas or some other face-stuffing, belly-busting, belt-loosening feast? In my younger days, after the meal, many of them dozed off in the chairs, couches, recliners, etc......and maybe snored.

There were always lots of "rotund" folks in past generations. Potential OSA sufferers. It's not just a recent "health issue". You only have to look at some of the old photographs or paintings and see for yourself......men AND women.

OK, now that we've set that scenario....... Most of the children have been born to younger parents.....usually younger than 40......more like in their 20s and 30s. Those children were born to pre-OSA parents. SO......they SURVIVED......and brought forth more generations of potential OSA sufferers. HOLY CRAP!......IT'S AN EPIDEMIC! (now)


Den

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not as many fat people as there are now because the UK and US junk food obsession promotes morbid obesity more than the foods our forefathers ate.

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Re: CPAP natural un-selection.

Post by andy5805 » Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:52 pm

Julie wrote:With all due respect, that whole idea sounds fairly whacky to me, never mind bordering on eugenic thinking.
Julie - with all due respect to you, how it it "whacky" to suggest what would be obvious to any medical professional - that someone with OSA does better on a CPAP machine than without being on a CPAP machine and therefore in the days before CPAP, people had more of a problem than they do now, and as such, fewer of them would have had productive lives, including reproducing etc, than if it was in our age now?

its like saying how many people learned to walk again before effective phsyio was invented next to people who walk now? that's not whacky, that's saying technology has a hand in our survival and it does. But we'd not have had that help 500 years ago.

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Re: CPAP natural un-selection.

Post by andy5805 » Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:54 pm

Janknitz wrote:OK, so my mom had severe sleep apnea (very apparent from trying to share a hotel room with her--despite ear plugs), it was never diagnosed or treated. Yet here I am. And I have probably had severe sleep apnea my entire life, yet I have two HEALTHY children.

The flaw in your theory is that sleep apnea doesn't kill quickly. It's a very slow disease. The serious effects aren't felt for decades. So "natural selection" doesn't play a role in the common form of OSA. Most people are past reproductive age when they are diagnosed and treated.
no I'm saying for example, that fewer people with tongues too large would have opportunity to make more people with tongues too large, in yesteryear than today, because they had less energy to have sex!

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Re: CPAP natural un-selection.

Post by palerider » Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:04 pm

andy5805 wrote:If this OSA had happened to some of our great grandparents, our great great grandparents, we would not be here. End of (or "period" as the USA say). It's a fact because its nasty and it takes people out. And it's not just about death and that, what if your great granddad was half cut/half dead on untreated OSA so your great gran to would-be thought what a tired old man and never looked at him again, it's back to the future stuff I know , but the fact remains, we are reversing natural selection.

so while I'm thankful for my place in the world and CPAP - I can tell you that nature is against us, were it left alone, it'd take care of us, and everyone would be born with big chins, tiny tongues, no uvula - it'd happen. .
there's a flaw in your logic.

while there are people that have SA in their teens and twenties, they rarely die from it at that age, it takes longer for the side effects to build up to the fatal stage, by then, they've already passed on those defective genes.

there's zero reason not to suspect that many of the deaths of earlier generations were the results of side effects of SA.

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Re: CPAP natural un-selection.

Post by palerider » Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:05 pm

Julie wrote:With all due respect, that whole idea sounds fairly whacky to me, never mind bordering on eugenic thinking.
well, one could easily drive a truck through the holes in his 'logic'.

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Re: CPAP natural un-selection.

Post by BlackSpinner » Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:16 pm

The vast majority of people who get diagnosed with OSA are over 30 and most are over 50. By that time most of us have reproduced which is the most important aspect of life according to "mother nature" . There was a benefit in the past for women to live longer - called the "grandmother effect" The longer a woman lived the more surviving grandchildren she had because she was around to help her daughters to care for the babies. The same was not true for older men.

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Re: CPAP natural un-selection.

Post by chunkyfrog » Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:24 pm

BlackSpinner wrote:The vast majority of people who get diagnosed with OSA are over 30 and most are over 50. By that time most of us have reproduced which is the most important aspect of life according to "mother nature" . There was a benefit in the past for women to live longer - called the "grandmother effect" The longer a woman lived the more surviving grandchildren she had because she was around to help her daughters to care for the babies. The same was not true for older men.
In other words, the uses for old men are limited?

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Re: CPAP natural un-selection.

Post by Wulfman... » Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:32 pm

andy5805 wrote:not as many fat people as there are now because the UK and US junk food obsession promotes morbid obesity more than the foods our forefathers ate.
I don't know about that. "Fat" doesn't mean that they didn't eat artery-clogging cholesterol-filled foods. Prior to the early 1900s "breakfast" was meat (beef, pork, bacon) and potatoes and eggs and gravy. Lots of breads, biscuits, and the like.
Their life expectancies weren't what we see these days. It was more of an agrarian lifestyle. They did work hard. So, they should have been healthier. You can't have it both ways.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_breakfast

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakfast

http://www.foodtimeline.org/foodfaq7.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Keith_Kellogg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harvey_Kellogg


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