Sleep disorders NOT apnea

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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Wulfman...
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Re: Sleep disorders NOT apnea

Post by Wulfman... » Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:53 pm

FredToo wrote:I know that you are right about that, but man have we got a lot of other people to convince !


What are Dreams?
Dreams happen during the rapid eye movement (REM) stage of sleep . In a typical night, you dream for a total of 2 hours, broken up by the sleep cycle. Researchers do not know much about how we dream or why. They do know that newborns dream and that depriving rats of REM sleep greatly shortens their lives. Other mammals and birds also have REM sleep stages, but cold-blooded animals such as turtles, lizards and fish do not.
REM Sleep and Dreaming
REM sleep usually begins after a period of deep sleep known as stage 4 sleep. An area of the brain called the pons--where REM sleep signals originate--shuts off signals to the spinal cord. That causes the body to be immobile during REM sleep. When the pons doesn't shut down the spinal cord's signals, people will act out their dreams. This can be dangerous because acting out dreams without input from the senses can lead a person to run into walls, fall down stairs or worse. This condition is rare and different from more common sleepwalking and known as “REM sleep behavior disorder.”

The pons also sends signals to cerebral cortex by way of the thalamus (which is a filter and relay for sensory information and motor control functions deep in the brain). The cerebral cortex is the part of the brain involved with processing information (learning, thinking and organizing). The areas of the brain “turned on” during REM sleep seem to help learning and memory. Infants spend almost 50 percent of their sleep time in REM sleep (compared to 20 percent for adults), which may be explained by the tremendous amount of learning in infancy. If people are taught various skills and then deprived of REM sleep, they often cannot remember what they were taught.
You need a few more reading sources

viewtopic.php?t=3524

From a link that I posted which is referenced in that link from "rested gal".

"REM Sleep is often called the “Dream State.” However, more dreams actually occur in NRS. Non-REM sleep periods are short, faint impressions that contain no emotions and are rarely remembered. “Non REM dreams resemble the ordinary process of thinking” (Lahey,1998, p144). Night terrors, sleepwalking and talking occur in Non-Rem sleep (Lahey,1998, p148). Considering all the above information, how do we determine which sleep period is better?"


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palerider
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Re: Sleep disorders NOT apnea

Post by palerider » Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:59 pm

FredToo wrote:I know that you are right about that, but man have we got a lot of other people to convince !
.
if you're copying something, the provide citations, otherwise, it looks like you're blathering mindlessly.

like this, to refute your 'rem(deep) sleep' mistake: (click for source)
Image

Dreaming outside of rem, read the paragraph " How often do we dream, and when? "

or this: "The researchers saw that high recallers awoke more frequently during the night. They were awake, on average, for 30 minutes during the night, whereas low recallers were awake for 14 minutes. However, Ruby said "both figures are in the normal range, it’s not that there’s something wrong with either group." as food for thought.

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Re: Sleep disorders NOT apnea

Post by bjl » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:15 pm

Could you describe your symptoms? For example, do you feel sleepy during the day or are you very fatigued? Those are two entirely different things and could have many different causes aside from sleep apnea. Do you feel depressed and/or anxious a lot? Are you having cognitive difficulties?

As someone else posted, no one here will be able to diagnose you. But understanding what symptoms you're experiencing might help us recommend a course of action which will almost certainly include additional visits to and testing by your doc.

-b

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Re: Sleep disorders NOT apnea

Post by Bugbarb » Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:54 am

In an earlier post, someone stated that lyme disease could cause sleep problems. I had lyme disease that wasn't diagnosed for at least two years post infection. When I went back to work, I could only work part time, had to take naps at work and had to leave work frequently due to feeling tired. I had a sleep study and was given ProVigil. My life was given back to me. I didn't have to nap. I could do things on the weekends other than sleep. It was wonderful. I almost felt like my pre-lyme self.

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Re: Sleep disorders NOT apnea

Post by bjl » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:31 am

Did you need Provigil after being treated for Lyme? Was your Lyme treatment considered successful? Lyme is certainly one possibility that could explain symptoms of severe fatigue, but there are many others.

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Re: Sleep disorders NOT apnea

Post by Sir NoddinOff » Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:37 pm

palerider wrote:
FredToo wrote: In order to dream, you need to reach a deep sleep state, something that most Apnea sufferers cannot do.
I rarely dreamed before CPAP and now I do. This tells me that I am reaching REM (deep) sleep,
If you are dreaming, you are sleeping. Your tiredness may be from something else, even though you are sleeping well?
Just an uneducated opinion, but worth every penny paid for it !
that's all pretty much wrong.

first, REM sleep is not deep sleep, they're two quite different sleep stages (check out any hypnogram).

second, I dreamed a lot when I had severe apnea.

third, if you don't wake up pretty soon after, or during, your dream, you typically won't remember them.

and, fourth, you do dream in other stages besides REM.

draw your own conclusions.


I agree with PR. Here is a visual that should clear things up.


Image

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Last edited by Sir NoddinOff on Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sleep disorders NOT apnea

Post by Sir NoddinOff » Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:50 pm

Bugbarb wrote:In an earlier post, someone stated that lyme disease could cause sleep problems. I had lyme disease that wasn't diagnosed for at least two years post infection. When I went back to work, I could only work part time, had to take naps at work and had to leave work frequently due to feeling tired. I had a sleep study and was given ProVigil. My life was given back to me. I didn't have to nap. I could do things on the weekends other than sleep. It was wonderful. I almost felt like my pre-lyme self.
Sorry to take this more off topic, but every two years I get the standard Lyme tick panel they administer in California... I'm wondering if that is comprehensive enough to catch the dozens of various strains that are continually mutating BTW, being an outdoors-man, I do get bit by ticks about once every two years, sometimes I get them off/out immediately but often the nymphs are hard to detect until the bite area gets red and infected. It's something I worry about a lot. I'm friends with someone who's in the last stages of the disease and it's certainly shortened his life by decades, plus there's no cure for his level of advanced infection, just life maintenance drugs to slow down the muscle and organ impacts.

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Re: Sleep disorders NOT apnea

Post by palerider » Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:09 pm

Sir NoddinOff wrote: I agree with PR. Here is a visual that should clear things up.
hrmph, I was looking for a link to that particular graphic, but couldn't find it in my brief search thanks.

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Re: Sleep disorders NOT apnea

Post by BlackSpinner » Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:26 pm

Sir NoddinOff wrote:orry to take this more off topic, but every two years I get the standard Lyme tick panel they administer in California... I'm wondering if that is comprehensive enough to catch the dozens of various strains that are continually mutating BTW, being an outdoors-man, I do get bit by ticks about once every two years, sometimes I get them off/out immediately but often the nymphs are hard to detect until the bite area gets red and infected. It's something I worry about a lot. I'm friends with someone who's in the last stages of the disease and it's certainly shortened his life by decades, plus there's no cure for his level of advanced infection, just life maintenance drugs to slow down the muscle and organ impacts.
And now it is suspected that Lymes disease is sexual transmittable!

http://goodmenproject.com/featured-cont ... e-shesaid/

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Re: Sleep disorders NOT apnea

Post by Lazer1234 » Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:41 am

BlackSpinner wrote:
And now it is suspected that Lymes disease is sexual transmittable!

http://goodmenproject.com/featured-cont ... e-shesaid/
That's right, and even between mother and unborn child.

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Re: Sleep disorders NOT apnea

Post by Sir NoddinOff » Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:14 pm

QUOTE from above link:
The work of Lyme-aware healthcare providers is being hampered by faulty testing and an outdated treatment protocol. As if that wasn’t enough, these professionals are also up against a medical community and agencies that seem rather averse to examining the rise of Lyme infection, with many institutional leaders clinging to the dangerous, antiquated notion that chronic Lyme doesn’t even exist. The status quo is making it incredibly difficult for severely ill patients to receive the treatment they desperately need.

My previous family doctor (a young man, no less) was so in denial about Lyme disease that I had to virtually threaten him to get a Lyme panel even tho my insurance covers it 100 percent. He told me it's almost impossible to get infected on the West Coast, even tho I recently talked to a Lyme tick researcher doing field research near Oakland, CA in a regional park. That lady told me it exists in surprisingly virulent pocket throughout California, including the Oakland Hills area that I was then mt biking in. She pointed to a cloth net she uses to pick up the ticks and showed me half a dozen tiny ones she'd trapped only forty feet from the busy trailhead. She said that she'd take them to the lab to test but she already knew that all six would come back positive (this from past tests). My current PCP (an old guy!) is much more enlightened and plans to have me tested every few years with a comprehensive panel.

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Re: Sleep disorders NOT apnea

Post by bjl » Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:15 pm

And even then the tests are not very accurate. I live in a Lyme "hot zone." I've been dealing with some chronic (and so far unexplained) illnesses for about 2 years now. My GP ran a Lyme panel a while back which came back negative. Yet my symptoms seemed consistent with what I've read about Lyme. So I found a "Lyme Literate MD" (LLMD) not too far from where I live. He ran some specialized labs which are not necessarily FDA-approved, use a private lab, and are not covered by insurance. Those tests showed that I was "slightly positive" for Lyme and Bartonella, but the results were still equivocal. I started treatment with antibiotics, but I started feeling even worse. Since the tests were equivocal and the LLMD was a bit "eccentric" I decided to stop the treatment. I then decided to see a functional/integrative doctor about 2 hours from where I live. He ran some different tests one of which came back positive for Lyme. (He ran some other tests with show that I have some other issues, but that's another story). This test supposedly shows whether you have an active infection (as opposed to just being exposed to Lyme at some point in your life). However some other tests which he expected to be positive were not. So even he's confused. Even with all these tests and various unexplained symptoms, my GP still insists that I don't have Lyme just because those original tests came back negative. It's a real quagmire...

-b

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Re: Sleep disorders NOT apnea

Post by webbie73 » Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:43 am

FredToo wrote:You mentioned that you are now dreaming and you used to not dream prior to CPAP. I assume you mentioned that because you realize the significance of that? In order to dream, you need to reach a deep sleep state, something that most Apnea sufferers cannot do.

I rarely dreamed before CPAP and now I do. This tells me that I am reaching REM (deep) sleep, so it should be telling you the same thing. But that certainly does not mean I jump out of bed every morning ready to lick the world. There can be a lot of issues at play here, and Apnea may or may not be one of them. I have found that doctors can be sometimes pretty easily led down the wrong path due to the information we give them. If you say you are not sleeping well, then he/she is likely to go down that road.

If you are dreaming, you are sleeping. Your tiredness may be from something else, even though you are sleeping well?

Just an uneducated opinion, but worth every penny paid for it !
FredToo
This is not true for everyone. During my sleep study I never reached Rem sleep yet I dreamt. In fact I had night terrors prior to my diagnosis of OSA. I dreamt so much that I felt tired from dreaming! (And the OSA) Now I dream less but sleep well.

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Re: Sleep disorders NOT apnea

Post by palerider » Mon Jan 05, 2015 10:46 am

webbie73 wrote:
FredToo wrote:You mentioned that you are now dreaming and you used to not dream prior to CPAP. I assume you mentioned that because you realize the significance of that? In order to dream, you need to reach a deep sleep state, something that most Apnea sufferers cannot do.

I rarely dreamed before CPAP and now I do. This tells me that I am reaching REM (deep) sleep, so it should be telling you the same thing. But that certainly does not mean I jump out of bed every morning ready to lick the world. There can be a lot of issues at play here, and Apnea may or may not be one of them. I have found that doctors can be sometimes pretty easily led down the wrong path due to the information we give them. If you say you are not sleeping well, then he/she is likely to go down that road.

If you are dreaming, you are sleeping. Your tiredness may be from something else, even though you are sleeping well?

Just an uneducated opinion, but worth every penny paid for it !
FredToo
This is not true for everyone. During my sleep study I never reached Rem sleep yet I dreamt. In fact I had night terrors prior to my diagnosis of OSA. I dreamt so much that I felt tired from dreaming! (And the OSA) Now I dream less but sleep well.
it's not true for anyone, since it's factually in error, as is explained further down.

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Re: Sleep disorders NOT apnea

Post by Sir NoddinOff » Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:23 pm

bjl wrote:And even then the tests are not very accurate. I live in a Lyme "hot zone." I've been dealing with some chronic (and so far unexplained) illnesses for about 2 years now. My GP ran a Lyme panel a while back which came back negative. Yet my symptoms seemed consistent with what I've read about Lyme. So I found a "Lyme Literate MD" (LLMD) not too far from where I live. He ran some specialized labs which are not necessarily FDA-approved, use a private lab, and are not covered by insurance. Those tests showed that I was "slightly positive" for Lyme and Bartonella, but the results were still equivocal. I started treatment with antibiotics, but I started feeling even worse. Since the tests were equivocal and the LLMD was a bit "eccentric" I decided to stop the treatment. I then decided to see a functional/integrative doctor about 2 hours from where I live. He ran some different tests one of which came back positive for Lyme. (He ran some other tests with show that I have some other issues, but that's another story). This test supposedly shows whether you have an active infection (as opposed to just being exposed to Lyme at some point in your life). However some other tests which he expected to be positive were not. So even he's confused. Even with all these tests and various unexplained symptoms, my GP still insists that I don't have Lyme just because those original tests came back negative. It's a real quagmire...
Thanks for the input bjl.
For the sake of 'full disclosure' I have to admit that several local doctors who are friends of mine have told me that there are certain unscrupulous local doctors who rely on so-so positive Lyme test results to bilk patients out of their money, mostly with very ineffective results. One local doctor earned the definite title of 'quack' from two doctor friends of mine. I don't know what to make of this problematic situation. Is that doctor a quack or on the cutting edge of the medical profession? It's the same with a lot of current borderline maladies... where do you draw the line and what is fake and what is real? I guess time will tell. Note to PR: Re: your graphic above. Actually I like your sleep stage graphic better than mine - it shows K-spindles and the various near-wake states more clearly than my graphic. It's shocking how erratic some of the sleep stages can be in some folks. Not entirely comforting, however that's what the current research is telling us. Some mornings I wake up and think: What the hell just happened

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