Surge Protector for your ASV

westom wrote: Your dad probably installed a 'whole house' protector to protect everything.

This made me laugh! My dad is 90 years old. When he was working, computers didn't exist in homes and no one had ever heard of whole house protectors.

Ogeo wrote: My dad is 90 years old. When he was working, computers didn't exist in homes and no one had ever heard of whole house protectors.

Quite true. In the 1960s, homes had virtually no electronics; no transistors. However all phone lines did have a 'whole house' type protector even long before that. But electricians were not allowed to touch phone stuff back then.

For some reason, some have confused two completely different devices. Both are called surge protectors. One located adjacent to electronics only claims to protect from a type of surge that typically causes no damage. Another is for protection from all types of surges. With specification numbers that define protection even from direct lightning strikes and other massive transients.

Similar plug-in protectors cost anywhere from $10 to $100 per protected appliance. All are electrically equivalent. All claim similar protection. How many joules does it absorb? These devices claim to absorb hundreds or thousand (near zero) joules. Protection already inside some electronics is superior to what that adjacent protector might do. Worse, in one case, surge damage was because an adjacent protector compromised protection in a network of powered off computers.

Another, electrically different, and more robust device (also found in industrial environments where damage must never happen) costs about $1 per protected appliance. These devices are obviously different due to a dedicated wire for an all so critically important, low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to single point earth ground. Effective protector must have that low impedance connection. Any facility that cannot have damage always implements that solution.

Why is a superior solution so less expensive? The most important component - earth ground - does not come with an obscene profit margin. Unless it is lower Manhattan or downtown Tokyo.

This discussion has wandered off into exactly the kind of thing which made me scream before I got my whole house generator. Lots of technical discussion and only a few pragmatic suggestions.

Here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=92146&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... in+a+Storm was my ultimate solution to power outages because I'm not enough of a Geek to build a back-up system. I haven't yet had to use it for a hurricane, but we've had power outages when idiots run into power poles or d@mnfool street pavers don't bother to mention they're turning off the power today for 12 hours. Or during the January freeze where everyone was warned to stay off the streets.

What I use for a surge suppressor is the PowerSquid Calamari.

Here: http://www.powersquid.com/powersquid-su ... p-186.html

I bought the Calamari back when I got my ASV in 2008. I retired that same ASV, still working well, in May this year. The Calamari still has all its lights.

This thing is a bit big for travel, but it's handy when traveling, all the same. Too often, motel rooms don't have easily accessible plugs, and I've found its long cord and flat, rotating plug really useful. The extra plugs let me plug in my small reading lamp, my cell phone, and my Kindle.

I like it.

When looking for a good surge protector the things to look for are a fused, or circuit breaker on the input side and one that protects all three legs of the power. Cheaper units only have one MOS between the power and the neutral leg, good ones will include this one and two more, one from neutral leg to the ground leg, and from the power leg to ground. I would also recommend that you have your house and plug grounding system checked. How the protection MOS's work is for high power surges they sacrifice themselves to protect your electronics. So that they will only work once for a high power surge, hence the need for the circuit breaker.
Myself I have gone a little overboard in protection, but only because I like to tinker . I have a whole house surge protector installed in my main panel, the power strip that feeds my cpap stuff I modified to contain 6 high amp MOS's , which then powers a float battery charger to keep a 120 Ahr deep discharge battery charged, that then powers my apap. I live out in the country about 10miles from a major city but we loose power here about five to ten times a year. Six so far this year, two over four days duration. With my battery supply I can easily run at least six days with humidifier, but I also have a generator that I run during the day that will keep the battery charged. I like to sleep uninteruped and deal with the power outage in the morning

physicsbob wrote:Cheaper units only have one MOS between t

I think you've got MOS and MOV confused.

At my work we have a diesel generator that powers the whole building. Every Tuesday the generator comes on and warms up, and then we cut the building over and run on generator for an hour, and then cut back to utility power. About 3/4 of our computers will crash during the 2-second cutover on/off generator, so we have battery backups at each of these computers. And the batteries fail after 3-5 years and need to be replaced. And the units fail after awhile, too.

If you do NOT have regular power glitches to test your batteries, you should test every couple of months and make sure that they really work and replace batteries when necessary. You can buy cheap replacements online.

Sorry about that I think my spelling checker changed them, and I didn't notice. They are MOVs (metal Oxide Varistors).

archangle wrote:Most UPS's and inverters produce a Modified Sine Wave (MSW) voltage, which can damage some CPAP machines. ResMed says MSW is OK for S9 machines, but not S8 machines with humidifiers. I haven't heard a statement for A10, but it's probably OK. I haven't seen a statement from Respironics, but I suspect PRS1 machines are OK, and M series and Legacy machines with humidifiers aren't.

I've run my M Series on a cheap TrippLite UPS a few times; no problems.

As to "protectors with lights" - I used to depend on a TrippLite LC1800 line conditioner for one of my computers. Some time later, someone did some testing on them and determined that the filtering/protection circuitry tended to fail after a couple of years - with NO indication from lights, sounds, or anything else. It literally would become a "pass-thru brick" with no way for the average user to realize it. So I don't trust lights much, and that design caused my opinion of TrippLite to drop rather markedly.

Tomorrow I'll be receiving a new Cyber Power 1500 UPS for a new desktop computer. For $200 it provides true sine wave, or close enough to it that no device will know the difference. As far as run time - I agree with whoever said the alarm goes off, you wake up, turn the heater off on the humidifier, and roll back over.

KSMike wrote: So I don't trust lights much, and that design caused my opinion of TrippLite to drop rather markedly.

Lights only report a type of failure when a protector is undersized. A potential house fire. Anyone can see this by first reading manufacturer's specification numbers. Protectors are rated to absorb hundreds or maybe thousand joules. A destructive surge may be hundreds of thosuands of joules. So what happens? To avert a house fire, a maybe one amp thermal fuse must blow. Protector parts must disconnect as fast as possible. While a surge remains connected to appliances.

Where is protection when a protector is near zero? Its light reports that a thermal fuse has opened due to a catastrophic failure. It does not report the other and acceptable failure mode - degradation. That light only says a protector is grossly undersized. A grossly undersized protector is reason for a rare but many house fires.

A picture further demonstrates lights do not report a protector as good. All MOVs removed and lights still say the protector is good:
http://www.zerosurge.com/technical-info ... bout-movs/

All 6 MOVs removed from circuit board, but "Protection Working" LED remains lit.

This is not a criticism of MOVs. MOVs, when properly used, are some of the best protectors. But when MOV protectors are adjacent to appliances, protection is ineffective. Because and again, where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? Effective protection always answers that question.

To work adjacent to the appliance, that protector must either absorb or block a surge. No filter blocks a surge. Destructive surge is a current source. That means voltage increases as necesssary to blow thorugh anything that might stop it. How does that 2 cm part block what three miles of sky could not? It doesn't. Again, those protectors are for another type of surge that typically does not do damage. That is made irreelvant by protection already inside appliances.

View more numbers. If a 5000 volt surge is approaching on the black (hot) wire. Then that adjacent protector (with 330 volt protector parts) connects 4670 volts to a green (safety ground) and white (neutral) ) wires. Now that surge has more wires to find earth destructively via adjacent appiances. Sometimes, this compromises superior protection inside an adjacent appliance.

Protectors for destructive surges must connect low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to single point earth ground. These completely different devices protect from all types of surges. And come with a number that defines that protection. A typical direct lightning strike is 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. This superior solution costs about $1 per protected appliance. Protector must remain functional even after a direct lightning strike.

Protection means hundreds of thousand of joules are not even inside a building. Once inside, nothing stops that destructive hunt for earth. Because a protector is only as effective as its earth ground - that low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection.

westom wrote:A picture further demonstrates lights do not report a protector as good. All MOVs removed and lights still say the protector is good:
http://www.zerosurge.com/technical-info ... bout-movs/

All 6 MOVs removed from circuit board, but "Protection Working" LED remains lit.

You've got to quit reading the marketing FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) when you don't understand how things work.

MOV's generally fail as a short circuit, blowing out the fuse that feeds the indicator light and turning the light off. That's why the light and fuse are there.

Note that this fuse is usually designed to NOT cut the power to the device, it just cuts power to the MOV and makes the "protected" light go dark.

By clipping the MOV's out of the circuit, you've basically removed the function of the indicator light. Duhh!!!! yes, if you go in and rewire the device, you can remove the the surge protection and keep the light on.

Yes, some surge protectors are better than others. The idea that only high dollar ones are useful does a disservice to everyone.

Despite the marketing hype above, it's a good idea to check the indicator lights, even on a low-cost circuit protector.

archangle wrote: You've got to quit reading the marketing FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) when you don't understand how things work.

First you say it is all wrong. Then you repeat what the engineer posted. That fuse disconnects undersized protectors as fast as possible - as you admit. And always leaves that surge connected to attached appliances. Often, a surge, too tiny to damage appliances, will destroy (blows the fuse in) a grossly undersized and highly praised protector.

You did not comprehend what was posted. Denied it. Then make same claims. Please underatand technology before attacking it.

Lights report one type of failure. One that occurs because a protector was grossly undersized. A failure that would have caused a house fire had the emergency protection (a one amp thermal fuse) not existed.

As demonstrated by a picture, protection can be completely compromised and its light still says protection is good. Most consumers, educated only by hearsay or retail salesmen, do not know what that light reports. It can report one type of failure and cannot say if the protector is good.

Any MOV that fails as a short circuit operates in violation of manufacturere specification, is a threat to human life, and must be removed immediately. Properly designed MOV devices do not fail that way. But protectors designed to be 'one shot' devices are grossly undersized. Some have an $80 price tag.

Another and supierior solution using MOVs, is not grossly undersized, costs about $1 per protected appliance. But those educated by MOV marketing FUD do not even know of this superior and less expensive solution. Best solution uses properly designed MOVs - not grossly undersized protectors that depend on a thermal fuse to avert a house fire.

Push come to shove, lightning is funny. We try to slow down its damsge as we can but there are few garentees, we will succeed.

I had one strike kill a 23,000 btu ac unit, I opened it up a 14 guage compressor wire fused (melted), I spliced the wire together, it still worked fine and was still working 3 years later, it never blew the fuses.

A friend had a strike hit his main, it jumped to the gutter, but came into the living room burnt 5 foot areas around the wall sockets, blew up a cb radio knocked the knobs to the other side of the room and set the rug on fire. They slept thru it, a neighbor call them up and told them there was a fire in the house.

The way I see it do what helps you feel safe, have INS to help with the losses, and keep your carma level high, so you won't have to deal with it. Jim

westom wrote: First you say it is all wrong...

Well, I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

I will add that any low cost surge protector without a "working" light is likely to fail at some time in the future and you won't know it.

Be sure any protector you are counting on has a "working" light and realize that even that "working" light isn't necessarily 100% reliable.

Actually, if you're really counting on it, DO go to the trouble to research and get a higher quality surge protector. A better protector DOES improve your odds.

Westom, do you have any specific models to recommend other than a whole house model? Or specific whole house models?

Here where I am, the power provider contracts to install the whole house unit and bills a monthly charge to your electfic bill. Personally I don't fo that kind of a deal, and I'm sure if they went to hook it in, they would require a total house rewire, when lightning burns me out, I'll get a box and live under a bridge. Jim

archangle wrote:

westom wrote: Westom, do you have any specific models to recommend other than a whole house model? Or specific whole house models?

With basic reading skills, then you know what is required of each proven solutions. With basic electrical knowledge, then you would not be wasting bandwidth with disparaging and useless comments. Using language only found with the least educated. You don't need model numbers. You ask only to subvert honest discussion. You enjoy that.

Informed consumers earth one 'whole house' protector to protect everything. Even disconneting is never that reliable. Any model must meet already defined specification numbers such as 50,000 amps. Companies with better integrity provide them including Leviton, Polyphaser, Ditek, General Electric, Siemens, ABB, Syscom, Square D, and Intermatic. A Cutler-Hammer version sells in Lowes and Home Depot.

OP asked about flickering and about surges. Those are two completely different anomalies. Backup power devices avert problems created by flickering (a reduced voltage). One 'whole house' protector is essential to protect from surges (a high voltage spike). Two completely different anomalies require to completely different devices as solutions.