Surge Protector for your ASV

KSMike wrote:I don't disagree with anything that's been said, but IMO a small UPS is a much better solution any medical equipment, especially something like CPAP, unless you're comfortable sleeping without it.

A UPS would be the best answer except that they won't run the xpap long enough, unless you get one big enough to last for the time need, and for that the cost is huge. I use a large one to keep my main computer online, even for that job it's too small.

Goofproof wrote:

KSMike wrote:I don't disagree with anything that's been said, but IMO a small UPS is a much better solution any medical equipment, especially something like CPAP, unless you're comfortable sleeping without it.

A UPS would be the best answer except that they won't run the xpap long enough, unless you get one big enough to last for the time need, and for that the cost is huge. I use a large one to keep my main computer online, even for that job it's too small.

The UPS concept with computers is not to actively run them while the power is off, but rather to allow the computer to shut down in the normal fashion without an abrupt loss of power to the connected equipment which can result on data loss or damage to components. Less important these days with the profusion of battery operated laptops and tablets though, but the UPS has its place and I own a few.

UPS is an option I would consider for XPAP for this reason: it will have an audible alarm that will wake me up if the power goes out, and at that point I can simply roll over and turn off the heated humidifier if it's on and go back to sleep for the rest of the night (when choosing your UPS make sure it has an "alarm silence" button on the front - easily accessible so you can just go back to sleep). The power draw without that heated humidifier is minimal. My 1000VA UPS would probably run my PRS1 for at least two full nights probably more, but I would have other backup in place before night #2 began

SleepyEyes21 wrote:Good information - thanks archangle. Would you recommend the surge protectors mentioned above, or others?

You're welcome. I haven't looked at a lot of different models recently, so I don't have any particular recommendations. I use a number of the Tripp Lite spike cubes mostly because they're convenient.

Ogeo wrote: I will get a good surge protector for all the flucuations in power that occur and I should be good to go when I ever get my machine.

Learn the difference between hearsay and wild speculation verses facts that include numbers. What variation? How often do your incandescent bulbs dime to less than 50% intensity? How often do your bulbs increases to become 30% brighter? Variations that much or less are perfectly fine for all electronics. Hearsay hypes fears of voltage variations that do not exist and are not harmful. The fear is created by subjective claims in hearsay - without numbers.

What is at risk due to those voltage variations? Motorized appliances such as a refrigerator. So your AC utility cuts off all power voltage cannot be maintained. Those voltage variations are normal voltage or no voltage.

Read a spec number on every protector's box. Let-through voltage is 330 volts. That means a protector does nothing until voltages exceed 330 volts. How often does your 120 volt mains increase to 330 volts?

View output of many UPSes when in battery backup mode. This 120 volt sine wave UPS outputs 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts. Is that harmful? Of course not. Perfectly good power for electronics that are so robust. So again, why protection from voltage variation? Many were told that only by advertising and hearsay; without facts and numbers. Then automatically know you must have protection.

A Tripplite does nothing useful for you. It was recommended by even ignoring that 330 volt number. Even power off is not hardware destructive. Another poular urban myth. If sudden power off was destructive, then he said what internal part is damaged. Nobody can because no such damage occurs due to sudden power off. Especially when normal AC power suddenly powers off 120 times every second.

You only need a temporary power source when a blackout occurs. Other anomalies may be a concern. But those must be addressed by other and proven solutions not discussed here.

westom wrote:

Ogeo wrote: I will get a good surge protector for all the flucuations in power that occur and I should be good to go when I ever get my machine.

Learn the difference between hearsay and wild speculation verses facts that include numbers. What variation? How often do your incandescent bulbs dime to less than 50% intensity? How often do your bulbs increases to become 30% brighter? Variations that much or less are perfectly fine for all electronics. Hearsay hypes fears of voltage variations that do not exist and are not harmful. The fear is created by subjective claims in hearsay - without numbers.

We live in the mountains and it is not uncommon for the power to totally go off, then on, then off, and on again many times within just a minutes time. Usually a tree has gone down on the line somewhere. In these cases, there is no dimming of the lights at all. It is just on or off.

Read a spec number on every protector's box. Let-through voltage is 330 volts. That means a protector does nothing until voltages exceed 330 volts. How often does your 120 volt mains increase to 330 volts? Interesting. I will definitely look at this. My dad was an electrician and I've helped wire homes but never learned the in & outs of volt, wattage, etc.

View output of many UPSes when in battery backup mode. This 120 volt sine wave UPS outputs 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts. Is that harmful? Of course not. Perfectly good power for electronics that are so robust. So again, why protection from voltage variation? Many were told that only by advertising and hearsay; without facts and numbers. Then automatically know you must have protection.

A Tripplite does nothing useful for you. It was recommended by even ignoring that 330 volt number. Even power off is not hardware destructive. Another poular urban myth. If sudden power off was destructive, then he said what internal part is damaged. Nobody can because no such damage occurs due to sudden power off. Especially when normal AC power suddenly powers off 120 times every second.

You only need a temporary power source when a blackout occurs. Other anomalies may be a concern. But those must be addressed by other and proven solutions not discussed here.

Thanks for your input into the topic. It's appreciated.

I also prefer using a UPS instead of just a surge protector because for the short outages, you will never even know they occurred.

However, if a Surge Protector is all you want, here is one that I have used for a few months now. It protects a Router, a network printer attached directly to that Router, a wired Carbon Monoxide Detector, & a Cordless phone.

This one also has 2 USB ports that my wife uses to charge her iPad 3, since the Surge Protector is in her "Office" (a bedroom converted to an office).

You can buy it even cheaper if you get the model that does NOT have the 2 USB ports. And both models also come in white.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DCK ... PDKIKX0DER

Westom, does have some valid points, however his ideas miss the point on the use of surge protectors. Machines are built to specs that allow +/- 10% of normal power ratings. Power Bricks take a lot of the abuse

Nowdays most things have circuit boards in them, many function as mini-computers. Motors are tough, they can take a lot of power abuse, circuit boards, not as much, most items don't even have replacable fuses built in a one dollar savior. Powersurges are stresses that weaked your equipment, they don't always kill on the first strike. Surge suppressors aren't power conditioners, all they can do is attempt to absorb or lessen the damage before it gets in.

Power variations from the power company, usually aren't the killer, lightning strikes of the power systems are, we aren't talking about 330 volts here, just a length if wire in a storm can kill you if conditions are right, lightning doesn't even have to hit it directly, voltage can be inducted into the wire.

The safest solution would be a correctly wired home with a whole house surge protecter wired in and matained. Using a good quality surge protector at the point of use as a secondary is a good idea too. Things still happen, we need insurance and extra equiptment to cover the rest. Most of us can't afford this best solution, so we have to choose what we can afford, and live with it. It gives something go complain about on the net, we all need that.

My home needs more power circuits ran, nothing has grounded outlets of ground fault plugs. I never havd lived in a home that meant the electric code, I used to make sure that anything I added meant code, but I no longer can do my own repairs, so we live with what we have, that's life, we make do, Jim

archangle wrote:

SleepyEyes21 wrote:Good information - thanks archangle. Would you recommend the surge protectors mentioned above, or others?

You're welcome. I haven't looked at a lot of different models recently, so I don't have any particular recommendations. I use a number of the Tripp Lite spike cubes mostly because they're convenient.

Never heard of Tripp Lite spike cubes - will look them up. Thanks again!

StuUnderPressure wrote:I also prefer using a UPS instead of just a surge protector because for the short outages, you will never even know they occurred.

However, if a Surge Protector is all you want, here is one that I have used for a few months now. It protects a Router, a network printer attached directly to that Router, a wired Carbon Monoxide Detector, & a Cordless phone.

This one also has 2 USB ports that my wife uses to charge her iPad 3, since the Surge Protector is in her "Office" (a bedroom converted to an office).

You can buy it even cheaper if you get the model that does NOT have the 2 USB ports. And both models also come in white.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DCK ... PDKIKX0DER

This is a neat product - thanks for the info, Stu

Ogeo wrote: Interesting. I will definitely look at this. My dad was an electrician and I've helped wire homes but never learned the in & outs of volt, wattage, etc.

A useful solution was never provided. Concern, I thought, was protection from a blackout. Not hardware protection since blackouts do not harm appliances. A blackout only means everything powers off without hardware damage.

Transient protection is located someplace completely different. Involves concepts often not taught to electricians. And will always answer this question: where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate?

Another posted a protector that, quiet frankly, only claims to protect from rransients that typically cause no damage. For example, one claims to absorb a thousand joules. What happens if a destructive transient - hundreds of thousands of joules - occurs? Worse, that 1000 joule protector only absorbs 360 joules and never more than 720. Near zero protection for about $26 per protected appliance. Other just as ineffective solutions sell for $35 or $80. The well proven 'whole house' solution is about $1 per protected appliance.

Your dad probably installed a 'whole house' protector to protect everything. These are from companies with superior integrity including Polyphaser, Siemens, Square D, Ditek, General Electric, Syscom, Intermatic, ABB, Leviton, and Cutler-Hammer. Using concepts often not taught to electricians. Protectors do not do protection. Protection is by what absorbs hundreds of thosuands of joules. Therefore an earth ground wire from protector to earth must be low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet', not inside metallic conduit, no sharp wire bends going over the foundation, etc). Because impedance (not resistance or wire thickness) is criticallly important. Earth ground determines how effective that protector might be.

Even a UPS only claims near zero hardware protection - often less than power strips. Unfortunately some have recommended a solution that even manufacturer spec numbers define as near zero. Two separate problems require two completely different solutions. Backup power and transient protection are different anomalies requiring completely different solutions.

westom wrote:Learn the difference between hearsay and wild speculation verses facts that include numbers. What variation? How often do your incandescent bulbs dime to less than 50% intensity?

Westom has read too much sales literature for high priced surge protectors.

I won't say you shouldn't buy a more expensive surge protector, but you need to get past the sales literature fear mongering.

The biggest step up is using some kind of decent surge protector and checking the light to be sure it's still working. If you don't spend the money for a better surge protector, using a cheaper one does improve the odds.

The idea that cheaper surge protectors are useless is simple sales literature nonsense.

The higher priced ones may give better protection, but it's a risk vs. cost issue. The high dollar protectors may not pay off long term.

This is especially true if you don't use any surge protection at all because it was too expensive.

There are also high priced surge protectors with big name brands that are not any better than some of the cheaper brands. Think of the fancy audiophile equipment stuff.

I will agree that there are probably some cheap knockoff surge protectors that may not do much at all. There are probably even cheap phony surge protectors that don't actually have any surge protection.

Most UPS's and inverters produce a Modified Sine Wave (MSW) voltage, which can damage some CPAP machines. ResMed says MSW is OK for S9 machines, but not S8 machines with humidifiers. I haven't heard a statement for A10, but it's probably OK. I haven't seen a statement from Respironics, but I suspect PRS1 machines are OK, and M series and Legacy machines with humidifiers aren't.

Archangle, you have to give Westom credit for pointing out that there is a difference between the small transients associated with the power going off and on and the large transients that can do damage to equipment.

I can tell you from experience that when you have to deal with large transients the products you can find at the office supply store don't help... At all!

When playing with the "big boys" you need something a little more robust. And that usually costs a little more. Fortunately most of us aren't in an environment that require "big boy" protection so the lower priced ones will offer a security blanket of sorts.

I suggest you look up the problems involved with protecting industrial equipment from transients. Look up the tests done to find solutions. It may alter the way you view the sales literature for both the expensive and inexpensive units.

HoseCrusher wrote:I suggest you look up the problems involved with protecting industrial equipment from transients. Look up the tests done to find solutions. It may alter the way you view the sales literature for both the expensive and inexpensive units.

Is the original poster using some sort of combination ASV machine and high capacity industrial stamping press?

I'm familiar with all that stuff, including serious levels of lightning protection. I also understand risks and benefits, and that if you go overboard on the surge protection, you will probably spend more money than you save.

HoseCrusher wrote:I can tell you from experience that when you have to deal with large transients the products you can find at the office supply store don't help... At all!

Yes, if lightning strikes the wire leading to his house, a cheap surge protector might not save your CPAP. An expensive one might not help either. Nearby lightning strikes sometimes even damage unplugged equipment, but it may leave another device in the same house unharmed. However, even with a big surge, a less expensive surge protector improves the odds vs. no protection.

Do you really think that a well-made low cost surge protector is not going to protect the equipment from any surges at all?

All you surge protector snobs telling people that inexpensive home surge protectors are worthless are needlessly convincing people to do without any protection at all.

HoseCrusher wrote:Archangle, you have to give Westom credit for pointing out that there is a difference between the small transients associated with the power going off and on and the large transients that can do damage to equipment.

No, I don't have to give him credit for that. He's blowing the issues way out of line and giving the idea it's not worth bothering unless you spend the big bucks. That's simply not true.

I do think a good whole house surge protector may be a good idea. I just object to the suggestion that lesser solutions aren't worth bothering with at all.

Don't put much faith in the surge protection of a UPS just because it's a UPS.

Many of the modern home UPS units are "standby" devices. The UPS part of the box doesn't do anything to the electricity until the power fails. The UPS circuitry doesn't suppress surges.

These kind of UPS's usually have some surge suppression built in, but it's not necessarily any better than a "normal" surge suppressor.

An "online" or "double conversion" UPS basically runs in "UPS" mode all the time and does much more to control the voltage and surges, but they cost much more.