Am I Impatient or is Sleep Apnea not my Answer?

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
wkpro
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Re: Am I Impatient or is Sleep Apnea not my Answer?

Post by wkpro » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:14 pm

kteague wrote:
wkpro wrote:
6.) No issues with restless leg picked up on my sleep study. I do have some wierd muscle twitching, but the sleep studies didn't show it disrupting my sleep.
Can you be more specific about what your sleep study did say about movements? And describe your "wierd muscle twitching" in more detail.
My study said I had no irregular movements, it was not mentioned to me at all.

The twitching is something I've dealt with for a few years. Almost like muscle spasms/flexing randomly. It was not picked up on my sleep study, but it definitely happens. It's actual visual twitching, you can see the muscle twitch, often in my legs, arms, shoulders, etc. My sleep doc said it can happen with exhaustion, but I haven't really seen any others on here mentioning it as a side effect.

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Re: Am I Impatient or is Sleep Apnea not my Answer?

Post by wkpro » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:18 pm

robysue wrote:
I feel like my headaches and fatigue may have even ramped up a bit, especially the headaches.
Are you taking medication for the headache pain on a regular basis? Even OTC stuff like Tylenol or Ibuprophen?

And have you ever been diagnosed with migraines or even simple, but severe tension headaches? The sensory overload from the CPAP can aggravate any of these kinds of headaches that have "triggers". It takes time for the body to adjust and learn to ignore the sensory stuff so that it doesn't trigger the headaches as frequently.
I have been taking tylenol in the mornings to combat it. I have never been diagnosed with migraines or tension headaches, but I've wondered if I have them. As strange as it sounds, I think for years I had headaches and didn't know that's what they were. Same with heartburn, I now know I had heartburn for years but usually thought it was anxiety/chest pain. The headaches are so "broad" that I often described it to my docs as feeling hungover, and most of them seemed to take a depression/anxiety standpoint from there on, which, again, was never successful.

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Re: Am I Impatient or is Sleep Apnea not my Answer?

Post by Pugsy » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:32 pm

wkpro wrote:and most of them seemed to take a depression/anxiety standpoint from there on, which, again, was never successful.
Oh I hate it when the docs do that. For 2 years my killer headaches were blamed on anxiety/depression and prescribed Valium which of course did nothing. Or if we are menopausal....the change gets blamed.

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Re: Am I Impatient or is Sleep Apnea not my Answer?

Post by GumbyCT » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:33 pm

wkpro wrote:
GumbyCT wrote:The foggyhead I can understand. I think if you would just answer some of the questions asked of you folks might have some suggestions.

w/o knowing hx the rest is just WAGs. Is that what you want?
I feel sometimes like it's so much effort to do anything, and that's how I felt last night about responding to all the questions haha. I got some responses out there now

Two newbie questions for you (new to forums in general actually):

What does hx mean?
What does WAGs mean?

I'm guessing I don't want WAGs haha
Oh I understand about not responding lastnite, np
=No Problem

Let me get to your Q? before I forget, yes I too have memory issues.
I thought you might try Google but here it is
hx=is how your doc abbreviates History.
WAG= Wild A$$ Guess(es) - it's what you get when you don't know the person's hx.

Show me a doc that will make suggestions, even over the internet, when all s/he knows is
1. I been reading this forum for 6yrs.
2. I have been dx'd and using cpap for 2 weeks

With some people it is like pulling teeth to get the info. You are coming around. Don't be offended by my style or lack of style. I am sure there are many who are wondering (silently)
wtf this means?
wkpro wrote:4.) Only one med, it's a choloesterol/triglyceride controlling med with little to no side effects, none related to sleep disruption.
While you may think there is alot of info there, you don't even give a clue of the 1st letter?
There could be a recall for this med that someone heard about yet has NO idea what this double secret medicines name is?

You do know the name of the ONLY med you are taking right? IF not I will say bluntly - you should know the name of anything that you put in your mouth. AND you should commit it to memory.

And fwiw - Cholesterol meds are best taken before bed. Why do you take it in AM?

High BP = Blood Pressure is another symptom of OSA yet you make NO mention of BP meds?

So you understand I haven't even been reading this forum for 6yrs. I have NO Clue what you read in those 6yrs. It is hard for me to understand when someone throws that out exactly what they have absorbed in that 6yrs. Or why they would say that?

We have people that find this forum after being on cpap for 15yrs or more and mention that as if they should know something. Yet, to be perfectly honest, there are others who have been here only 6 months yet know 3x as much just by reading the info here. Mainly cuz that 15yr veteran never asked questions, did any reading, and only knows how to press the OFF button.

obtw- did I miss what your pressure is set too?

Could you have another problem? Certainly, but make sure this know problem is under control first. You climb the stairs by going up one step at a time.

You have the attention of some of the very best veterans here.

Do you best to help them help you.

I am rootin for ya

Good Luck

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Re: Am I Impatient or is Sleep Apnea not my Answer?

Post by GumbyCT » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:51 pm

Ok I found it you are using a pressure of 10 and IF I'm not mistaken using an EPR of 2? That is effectively like using a pressure or 8cm. IF you have the software AND see the need you might consider either dropping the EPR OR increasing the pressure for each step of EPR you do use.

So with EPR=2 Pressure=12cm

I am wonder IF at the worst part of the night you have events which are NOT resolved by your current pressure setting. Which you should also add in your sig right now. And results in reduced O2 and the morning headaches

Which btw - I don't have any recommendation for a recording oximeter, as I don't have or use one. Searching the forum will likely bring abundant reading for you.

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Re: Am I Impatient or is Sleep Apnea not my Answer?

Post by wkpro » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:15 pm

GumbyCT wrote:With some people it is like pulling teeth to get the info. You are coming around. Don't be offended by my style or lack of style. I am sure there are many who are wondering (silently)
wtf this means?
wkpro wrote:4.) Only one med, it's a choloesterol/triglyceride controlling med with little to no side effects, none related to sleep disruption.
While you may think there is alot of info there, you don't even give a clue of the 1st letter?
There could be a recall for this med that someone heard about yet has NO idea what this double secret medicines name is?

You do know the name of the ONLY med you are taking right? IF not I will say bluntly - you should know the name of anything that you put in your mouth. AND you should commit it to memory.

And fwiw - Cholesterol meds are best taken before bed. Why do you take it in AM?
Haha thanks your style doesn't offend me, I'm just glad you're taking the time to help me out I'm greatly appreciative of all your questions. So on to my med: I take 4 grams of Cholestyram for Oral Suspension (a powder I drink in juice or water). I do know the name of the only med I take I take it in the AM at the request of my doctor. Previously I was supposed to take it with breakfast and with dinner, but I was feeling bloated after taking it which made me a bit uncomfortable in the evening, so I'm just taking it in mornings now on doctor's orders.
GumbyCT wrote:High BP = Blood Pressure is another symptom of OSA yet you make NO mention of BP meds?
This is because I do not have high BP... never have.
GumbyCT wrote:So you understand I haven't even been reading this forum for 6yrs. I have NO Clue what you read in those 6yrs. It is hard for me to understand when someone throws that out exactly what they have absorbed in that 6yrs. Or why they would say that?

We have people that find this forum after being on cpap for 15yrs or more and mention that as if they should know something. Yet, to be perfectly honest, there are others who have been here only 6 months yet know 3x as much just by reading the info here. Mainly cuz that 15yr veteran never asked questions, did any reading, and only knows how to press the OFF button.
I had mentioned I have felt ill for 6 years, not that I read the forum that long. I have only read the forum somewhere around a year or 6 months, somewhere in there. I just had said I've read the forum before I was diagnosed with OSA. As far as why I'd say it, so people would know I seeked answers before posting. I know some forum communities get picky about asking questions that have been answered in previous posts, so I wanted to make sure people were aware I tried to be self-sufficient, but couldn't find the info I was looking for. I'm definitely here to learn... I'll be the first to admit I know NOTHING
GumbyCT wrote:obtw- did I miss what your pressure is set too?
Yep, 10.
GumbyCT wrote:Could you have another problem? Certainly, but make sure this know problem is under control first. You climb the stairs by going up one step at a time.

You have the attention of some of the very best veterans here.

Do you best to help them help you.

I am rootin for ya

Good Luck
Thank you so very much! I definitely am encouraged and deeply thankful for all of you sharing your knowledge and actually caring without even knowing me. You are all great!

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Re: Am I Impatient or is Sleep Apnea not my Answer?

Post by wkpro » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:18 pm

GumbyCT wrote:Ok I found it you are using a pressure of 10 and IF I'm not mistaken using an EPR of 2? That is effectively like using a pressure or 8cm. IF you have the software AND see the need you might consider either dropping the EPR OR increasing the pressure for each step of EPR you do use.

So with EPR=2 Pressure=12cm

I am wonder IF at the worst part of the night you have events which are NOT resolved by your current pressure setting. Which you should also add in your sig right now. And results in reduced O2 and the morning headaches

Which btw - I don't have any recommendation for a recording oximeter, as I don't have or use one. Searching the forum will likely bring abundant reading for you.
Thanks for the suggestion, maybe I'll just try to lower my EPR. I did get SleepyHead software and it does look like I'm having events around the time I tend to wake up (3-4am) each night. You have been so helpful, thanks again,

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Re: Am I Impatient or is Sleep Apnea not my Answer?

Post by BlackSpinner » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:25 pm

Thanks for the suggestion, maybe I'll just try to lower my EPR. I did get SleepyHead software and it does look like I'm having events around the time I tend to wake up (3-4am) each night. You have been so helpful, thanks again,
A lot of people have events at that time. That is the deepest REM sleep time. It is the lowest point in your daily rhythm too. You may need a bit more pressure to keep these events at bay. Average AHI can be very misleading if all your events happen during REM sleep.

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Re: Am I Impatient or is Sleep Apnea not my Answer?

Post by wkpro » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:30 pm

A few more newbie questions then...

1.) If I lower or turn off EPR, might that be enough without having to up pressure?

2.) If I do need pressure higher, can I do that myself, or do I need to bring my machine back in?

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Re: Am I Impatient or is Sleep Apnea not my Answer?

Post by BlackSpinner » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:40 pm

wkpro wrote:A few more newbie questions then...

1.) If I lower or turn off EPR, might that be enough without having to up pressure?

2.) If I do need pressure higher, can I do that myself, or do I need to bring my machine back in?
Come to the dark side and download a manual and take control of your therapy.

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Re: Am I Impatient or is Sleep Apnea not my Answer?

Post by GumbyCT » Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:37 pm

wkpro wrote:A few more newbie questions then...

1.) If I lower or turn off EPR, might that be enough without having to up pressure?

2.) If I do need pressure higher, can I do that myself, or do I need to bring my machine back in?
Turning off the EPR would be the best thing to try and easiest. Esp. since you prob aren't used to the pressure just yet.

Keep an eye on your data downloads to determine if an increase in pressure would be helpful. Info on how to make changes is readily available. But take one step at a time. You may have read here to change one thing at a time and to monitor for a week.

Your body will take time to adjust to changes. Keep in mind it did adjust to the lack of sleep so slowly you never noticed.

I guess the 6yr thing was my misunderstanding of things.

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Re: Am I Impatient or is Sleep Apnea not my Answer?

Post by robysue » Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:41 pm

wkpro wrote:
robysue wrote:
I feel like my headaches and fatigue may have even ramped up a bit, especially the headaches.
Are you taking medication for the headache pain on a regular basis? Even OTC stuff like Tylenol or Ibuprophen?

And have you ever been diagnosed with migraines or even simple, but severe tension headaches? The sensory overload from the CPAP can aggravate any of these kinds of headaches that have "triggers". It takes time for the body to adjust and learn to ignore the sensory stuff so that it doesn't trigger the headaches as frequently.
I have been taking tylenol in the mornings to combat it.
Every morning? Almost every morning? If so, then my bet is on Rebound Headaches.

You need to talk to your PCP about the fact that you are taking tylenol every morning for headache pain. He should send you to a neurologist. Chances are, the first thing you'll have to deal with is Rebound Headaches. And then you'll have to deal with figuring out what the underlying headaches are. It can be a long process. You may need to keep a headache journal. (When did the headache hit? How bad is the pain? What kind of pain? Where is the pain? Did you take anything? How well did it work? Did the headache come back a few hours later?)

The headaches are so "broad" that I often described it to my docs as feeling hungover, and most of them seemed to take a depression/anxiety standpoint from there on, which, again, was never successful.
Since you've described the headaches as "broad" and used an analogy to feeling hungover, it doesn't surprise me that they've been shoved into the "depression/anxiety" category.

To get a doc to correctly evaluate headache pain requires that you describe the pain much more precisely in the vocabulary of headaches. And many folks with chronic headache pain can describe their pain in exquisite detail with vivid imagery. (There's plenty of macabre artwork drawn by headache sufferers in an effort to help visualize their particular pain so others can understand it.) When describing headaches to doctors it's important to describe:
  • How they hurt (the quality of the pain)
  • Where where they hurt (the location of the pain)
  • Severity of the pain
  • Onset of the pain (in two senses: When do the individual headaches tend to start? And when did the headaches first become noticeable?)
  • Length of the pain (how long they last)
  • Frequency of the pain (how often you get them)
  • Response to self treatment (both what you do to alleviate the pain and how well it works.)
Describing the quality of the pain is critically important: The typical vocabulary for describing the quality of headache pain are words like "dull", "sharp", "stabbing" or "throbbing". My guess is that your pain is "dull pain"---as in "it's just there and kind of equally painful every where it hurts and it doesn't feel like an ice pick being thrust into your head or an ax cleaving your skull ("stabbing" and "splitting" pain respectively) and it doesn't feel like you can hear or feel your heartbeat or pulse in your head ("throbbing") and the pain doesn't wax and wane on a periodic basis every few seconds to minutes (also "throbbing"). "Dull" pain can also sometimes be described as if you've got an overtight wide band around your head and someone is (very, very) slowly tightening the already too tight band. In other words, "dull" pain often feel a bit like pressure being applied to your head or your head being squeezed in a vice. And it's critically important to keep in "dull" pain does not mean "mild" or "moderate" pain. Dull pain can hurt like the dickens, but it's "dull" in the sense of not being clearly defined and clearly localized.

The typical vocabulary for describing location of the pain has two parts: First there is "bilateral" vs. "unilateral" pain. Pain on both sides of the head is bilateral; pain on one side is unilateral. Then there's the actual location of the pain---if it's well defined: "Over my left eyebrow", "In my jaw joint", "back of my head", "crown of my head", "in my cheeks" are all examples of localized pain descriptions. If the pain seems to be all over or doesn't have real clear boundaries, it's said to be "generalized" or "whole head". My guess from your description of it feeling like a hangover is that you've either got generalized pain OR its pain that's focused behind your eyes. And probably bilateral. But that's just based on my rather limited experiences from being hungover in college a very long time ago.

For severity of the pain, most people stick to words like "mild", "moderate", "severe". But other more colorful descriptors of "severe" abound. Often a headache doctor will ask you to rate the pain on a scale from 0--10 where 0=NO PAIN at all and 10=Most severe pain you can imagine. I haven't a clue as to what level of pain your headaches are.

For Onset: Do you wake up with the headache? In other words is it there the instant you open your eyes while you are still in bed? Or does it start later? With breakfast perhaps? Have you had these headaches for years? Have they gotten worse or better since starting CPAP?

For Length: How long do they last if you don't take the Tylenol? All day? Or only a couple of hours? How long do they last with the Tylenol? A few minutes? A couple of hours? All day?

For Frequency: Do you have this particular kind of headache every day? 5 or more times a week? 3--4 times a week (every other day?) 1-2 times a week? 1-2 times a month? Irregularly?

For Response: How well does the Tylenol work? Does it merely lessen (dampen/dull) the pain? Or does it eliminate the pain? Have you had to increase the amount of Tylenol you take in order to get the same response?

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Re: Am I Impatient or is Sleep Apnea not my Answer?

Post by MaxDarkside » Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:51 pm

BlackSpinner wrote:Come to the dark side ...
Bwhahahaa.... Indeed.

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Re: Am I Impatient or is Sleep Apnea not my Answer?

Post by GumbyCT » Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:12 pm


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Re: Am I Impatient or is Sleep Apnea not my Answer?

Post by wkpro » Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:14 pm

Thanks again. I'll respond some more in the morning, but for now one more question. For those who have recommended getting a referral to a neurologist, any suggestions on how to make that happen? I have a history of having doctors shrug off my requests for referrals so I fear I don't go about it the right way. I feel adamant about getting that aspect checked out in case the headaches, twitches, mental issues, etc. aren't ALL apnea related, so hopefully this doc is different. I've asked at least two general practitioners before and emphasized the headaches, twitches, etc. but in both cases was told that it wasn't needed, that I was fine because the blood tests they ran said I was fine and that I was probably just anxious/depressed. Is it just me, or do doctors seem to be fighting against you? I have insurance, good insurance, so if I want to cover all my bases, why would they want to stop me??? Sorry for the rant. Again, any help is greatly appreciated!

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