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O.T.: Coconut Oil and Alzheimer's/Dementia

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Expand view Topic review: O.T.: Coconut Oil and Alzheimer's/Dementia

Re: O.T.: Coconut Oil and Alzheimer's/Dementia

Post by nazanian on Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:10 pm

Most anthologists of quotations are like those who eat cherries or oysters: first picking the best ones and winding up by eating everything. ~Sebastien Roch Nicolas Chamfort, Maxims, 1825

Re: O.T.: Coconut Oil and Alzheimer's/Dementia

Post by Slartybartfast on Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:42 pm

Pithy quote: "People are very open-minded about new things--as long as they're exactly like the old ones."

»C.F. Kettering

Re: O.T.: Coconut Oil and Alzheimer's/Dementia

Post by Emilia on Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:52 am

Here is a list of peer reviewed studies on VCO and medium chain triglycerides: http://www.coconutoil.com/peer_reviewed.htm

Re: O.T.: Coconut Oil and Alzheimer's/Dementia

Post by nazanian on Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:07 am

Ozig, I appreciate very much your support and dedication helping CPAP users in this forum. Thanks.

Re: O.T.: Coconut Oil and Alzheimer's/Dementia

Post by ozij on Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:20 am

I have to correct an error I made in the text you quoted:
ozij wrote:You will find links to support my statement in my recent threads on this forum. Search for them. Study them - it may have a big impact on your health.


I was thinking of recent "posts" of course, not "threads".

Re: O.T.: Coconut Oil and Alzheimer's/Dementia

Post by nazanian on Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:50 am

Ozig, you get the wrong end of the stick. As Miguel Servet described blood circulation some hundreds years ago, that knowledge I talk about is valid nowadays. Those were only examples.

If someone looks for "coconut oil atherosclerosis" in GOOGLE ACADEMICS, it will be found 10 500 links:http://scholar.google.es/scholar?start=0&q=coconut+oil+atherosclerosis&hl=es&as_sdt=0
And many of those studies are made in animals.

Any recent advance must be verified under scientific homologated study.


ozij wrote:I am not a rabbit.


I will not be used as a guinea pig unless I decide it so.

ozij wrote:I certainly hope that any medical therapy your receive from your doctors is based on the most recent advances in studies with human beings, and not on decades old findings based on any non-human creature.

ozij wrote:Nazanian,
You will find links to support my statement in my recent threads on this forum. Search for them. Study them - it may have a big impact on your health.



You could be surprised of the level of understanding I have from any treatment I receive from any M.D.

Re: O.T.: Coconut Oil and Alzheimer's/Dementia

Post by nazanian on Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:14 am

ozij wrote:
Again, any proved therapy for any disease should go under elaborated tests, under scientific method. Then it is published in a scientific journal. An then published worldwide. That is how medicine works as I understand medicine. If anyone thinks medicine may be other things, it's his/her choice. Thanks.


I certainly hope that any medical therapy your receive from your doctors is based on the most recent advances in studies with human beings, and not on decades old findings based on any non-human creature.

Re: O.T.: Coconut Oil and Alzheimer's/Dementia

Post by ozij on Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:21 am

Again, any proved therapy for any disease should go under elaborated tests, under scientific method. Then it is published in a scientific journal. An then published worldwide. That is how medicine works as I understand medicine. If anyone thinks medicine may be other things, it's his/her choice. Thanks.


I certainly hope that any medical therapy your receive from your doctors is based on the most recent advances in studies with human beings, and not on decades old findings based on any non-human creature.

Re: O.T.: Coconut Oil and Alzheimer's/Dementia

Post by nazanian on Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:06 pm

Janknitz wrote:
1-"Average plasma cholesterol was twice as high in the coconut oil/cholesterol-fed rabbits than in olive oil/cholesterol-fed rabbits."
2-"Aortic cholesterol increased in proportion to plasma cholesterol concentrations ."


Increased total cholesterol is MEANINGLESS. Your argument was that small, dense LDL was increased. The article you cite does not say that. It says "plasma cholesterol", which I would take to mean total cholesterol. Total cholesterol may be increased because HDL increased--that's a good thing, very desireable. And the little bit you quoted doesn't say how the numbers were calculated, in any case. The most common method (Freidenwald equation) of counting LDL particles becomes inaccurate (skews too high) when triglycerides fall below 100. That little exerpt gives NO information to determine what they are really talking about, and how it was measured.

Finally, rabbits are herbivores, and most of their fats come from polyunsaturates. Their metabolisms may not be equipped to handle saturated fats. Ours are.


If I pasted that link was because the mere fact of cholesterol playing a definitive role in atherosclerosis was in doubt in this thread. Example:
ozij wrote: LDL-C is not a a good predictor of atherosclerosis.
Eating saturated fat raises your HDL. And changes the size of LDL particles to the benign large ones.

You will find links to support my statement in my recent threads on this forum. Search for them. Study them - it may have a big impact on your health.



The article also mentions that "cholesterol that deposits in blood vessels is twice as high in coconut oil than in olive oil." Actually, if you don't go beyond LDL or HDL type, the quote is far enough as an argument. And not poor.

If you don't like the study with rabbits, go to the rhesus monkeys one instead which is the second link I suggested.

Anyway, saying that studies in small animals (herbivores or not) are useless to investigate in humans, is not true. That position tells that hundreds of thousands of studies in animals are useless to study the human being. It is putting into question scientific method. But you talk about herbivores: In particular that study is published in atherosclerosis journal, and what you are saying is that people who elaborate the journal is interested in what happens to those rabbits. Otherwise, they would have never allowed to publish that useless study for humans.

What I am saying is known from decades ago: role of LDL- cholesterol in artherosclerosis, high rate of LDL in coconut oil, etc. And I just went to the first links that appeared in GOOGLE ACADEMICS due it was so obvious for me.

Again, any proved therapy for any disease should go under elaborated tests, under scientific method. Then it is published in a scientific journal. An then published worldwide. That is how medicine works as I understand medicine. If anyone thinks medicine may be other things, it's his/her choice. Thanks.

Re: O.T.: Coconut Oil and Alzheimer's/Dementia

Post by Janknitz on Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:38 pm

1-"Average plasma cholesterol was twice as high in the coconut oil/cholesterol-fed rabbits than in olive oil/cholesterol-fed rabbits."
2-"Aortic cholesterol increased in proportion to plasma cholesterol concentrations ."


Increased total cholesterol is MEANINGLESS. Your argument was that small, dense LDL was increased. The article you cite does not say that. It says "plasma cholesterol", which I would take to mean total cholesterol. Total cholesterol may be increased because HDL increased--that's a good thing, very desireable. And the little bit you quoted doesn't say how the numbers were calculated, in any case. The most common method (Freidenwald equation) of counting LDL particles becomes inaccurate (skews too high) when triglycerides fall below 100. That little exerpt gives NO information to determine what they are really talking about, and how it was measured.

Finally, rabbits are herbivores, and most of their fats come from polyunsaturates. Their metabolisms may not be equipped to handle saturated fats. Ours are.

Re: O.T.: Coconut Oil and Alzheimer's/Dementia

Post by nazanian on Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:12 pm

Lizistired wrote:Studying how rabbits(herbivores) process oils, seems akin to studying how rats(nocturnal) get vitamin D.


Here you have one study in hamsters. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10673913

May be you think the worry of those scientists is how different animals process different type of oils.

Re: O.T.: Coconut Oil and Alzheimer's/Dementia

Post by Lizistired on Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:06 am

Studying how rabbits(herbivores) process oils, seems akin to studying how rats(nocturnal) get vitamin D.

Re: O.T.: Coconut Oil and Alzheimer's/Dementia

Post by nazanian on Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:10 am

ozij wrote::shock:
Sorry. I don't go by abstacts, and refuse to pay $31 for a study done on rabbits and publish in 1988.

I am not a rabbit. I would not do well on rabbit food.


As you see I haven't had to go to the last news to find evidences: 1988.
I bet you read complete medical researches and understand everything they say because you have medical studies. But for that reason, you should believe abstracts from studies that are published in well known prestige pages.
For the same reason, you know scientific investigation has always been done on animals before humans. I have given you serious links about effects of coconut oil in lab animals. At least give me a serious link with at least anatomicophatological evidences for benefits of coconut oil in Alzheimer disease.
Otherwise, it would be other case of medical charlatanism.

Re: O.T.: Coconut Oil and Alzheimer's/Dementia

Post by ozij on Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:02 am

:shock:
Sorry. I $31 for the full version of a study done on rabbits and published in 1988.

I am not a rabbit. I would not do well on rabbit food, and therefore have no reason to assume any research on rabbits eating oil is relevant for me as a human being.

Re: O.T.: Coconut Oil and Alzheimer's/Dementia

Post by nazanian on Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:41 am

Janknitz wrote:
The fact about the relation between LDL and atherogenesis is known a quarter of a century ago, as it says in MEDSCAPE:


OK but where are the studies linking intake of coconut oil in particular to the small particle atherogenic LDL???

See this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/02/dinin ... wanted=all . The coconut oil vilified for its atherogenic properties was HYDROGENATED-- we are not talking about hydrogenated coconut oil here. There is no evidence that unhydrogenated coconut oil is atherogenic.



I agree with you that the benefits of CO for Alzheimer's and other health issues are largely anecdotal, but I see no evidence of any harmful effects that would concern me enough to avoid it.

There's plenty of evidence that good dietary fats (saturated and mono-unsaturated) do NOT raise LDL and triglycerides. Read Gary Taubes NY tImes article "What if it's all a big, fat lie?" and follow his references for plenty of scientific ("scientifical" is not a word in English BTW) evidence.


Here you ahve a atherosclerosis journal link of an abstract study from where I extract for you two sentences: http://www.atherosclerosis-journal.com/article/0021-9150(88)90142-6/abstract

1-"Average plasma cholesterol was twice as high in the coconut oil/cholesterol-fed rabbits than in olive oil/cholesterol-fed rabbits."
2-"Aortic cholesterol increased in proportion to plasma cholesterol concentrations ."

Another link from American Heart Association: http://atvb.ahajournals.org/content/7/5/441.short
1- "The aortas of both fish-oil groups (II or III) contained significantly less cholesterol (total, free, and esterified), as well as less acid lipase, cholesteryl esterase, and ACAT activities when compared to the coconut-oil group."
2- "Microscopically, the aortic and carotid artery lesions were smaller in cross-sectional area and in thickness, and contained less macrophages in the fish-oil groups (II and III) when compared to the coconut-oil group"

In the case of use of non hydrogenated coconut oil (Coconut oil is hydrogenated; I ignore dehydrogenation process but imagine pretty expensive) it will have to be on scientific studies and published in medical journals so I can believe its benefits and lack of harm effects, in order to use it.

Thanks for correcting me.

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