Hi Everybody

This thread

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=46255&start=0

has helped to make things a bit clearer to me, and I will share that with you, just as an exercise in getting my thoughts straight, and with no expectation of agreement from anyone.

We know the doctors are circumscribed by their training, as many of us, including myself, have been at various times in our lives in relation to different professions. And this can apply to RT's, who have a comprehensive training program (which may not include a whole lot about OSA). And as I have said before, DME consultants are really just hardware shop assistants, whereas some of them have had some useful training, others are just a sales person that can waffle through not knowing what they are doing.

I learned a long time ago that those with a little knowledge can often appear as experts to those with none. (I know, I have done it).

Incompetence and rudeness are everywhere, so I won't get into that on this post.

What we are left with is the American, Australian, Canadian, South African etc - Federal law, State laws and insurance regulations.

This is what needs to be changed for us to get better treatment. People often desperate for a job are sometimes going to compromise their principles to get and keep that job. Many of us have been lied to, even by people who know that we know they are lying. Others will believe, quite naturally, that their training was valid, or what they have been told by their boss was valid, and that they now know more than the consumer (the average OSA sufferer).

And in many cases they would probably be right. But obviously, we are not the average OSA sufferer.

So the question is - how do we change this.

I think, by any means we can, and these would include -

Accepting professionals here, and sharing our experience and wisdom with them. Sometimes putting up with their pontificating in order to achieve our goal. But pontificating is not restricted to professionals - I (and possibly others) have been known to do a bit ourselves.

Getting the laws changed. Here in Australia anyone can become a seller of Cpap equipment. A charming manner, a machine on one's desk to fit a mask to, and an unlimited amount of bullshit. The fact that they need a prescription does not give them any professional status except, except that to the the uninformed, it would make them appear powerful and knowledgeable. So if I fiddle around with a mask that you have never even seen before, and make one or two adjustments, then I appear to know what I am doing.

What have I done about this so far - well - nothing. I have been too busy complaining on this Forum. Will I change - I do not know - in the last years of my life I am not sure I want to tackle a challenge as big as this one.

Now we come to the Forum itself, and I need to have a mind-set about it that will work for me.

Freedom of speech is what we have. Not a democracy, not a moderated (censored) forum, not a place where I can control the outcome of a thread, or the response to a post. The fact is I have zero control, and therefore I should have zero expectations.

In a word - we have anarchy - and I must admit I have a begrudging admiration for the concept of anarchy. It means that those who need help (technical or emotional) get that help. Those who want to vent - get to vent, those who want to scare away professionals - get to scare away professionals, those who want to welcome professionals get to welcome them, and those who want to "ask for evidence in support of questionable statements" get to do that. And those who object to any or all of the above - can do that.

This is anarchy.

And now we come to the real benefit of anarchy. The participants of such a society have the opportunity to learn tolerance, whilst at the same time doing what is necessary to retain their self-respect. I have done more work on myself in the last 6 months in this forum, than I have for many years. But again, the reality is that not everyone has the power or assertiveness skills to do that.

So the downside is that there are some people who do get upset by violent posts, but they have already seen them by the time they know they are violent. And some leave the forum because of this. Only a sense of respect for others is going to change this, and I will not be holding my breath waiting for this to happen. It never will. Angry, oxygen deprived, (possibly brain-damaged), medically abused sufferers of sleep apnea will always be joining us. And we will welcome them.

So if I can accept this forum as the epitome of anarchy, then I can rest easy with what I see, respond to what I object to, and help where I can.

And, finally, I do not think we make enough of the fact that it is NOT illegal for us to change our machine settings. We should make this point fiercely and often to those who object to us taking charge of our own treatment.

cheers

Mars

Good for you, Mars. I guess I am just too old. I expect at least a minimum of civility in our disagreements and am disappointed in people whom I like and/or respect who tend to be less than civil to others, sleep professionals or whoever. I survive it, but sadly. Like it or not, "appearances do matter". And there are those newbies whose first encounter w/our forum might be one of the "less than civil" threads who opt of of continued participation or use of this valuable forum. Ah, well, so be it, I guess.

I think that about covers it...bordering on overkill for the average casual forum participant; but, as you clearly said, it was an exercise more for you than others.

One thing I see missing is that if a participant, amateur or pro, posts misinformation, they should expect to be challenged and/or corrected. If we expect to be a valuable source of information and advice, accuracy is a must. And we should all be vigilent about weeding out what isn't.

That being said, we're all human. (Well, except for the monkeys and cats... )

Well said Mars. I think most of us will agree with you. Everyone has a right to their opinions, and if someone gets up your nose, to vent your spleen - in a nice way. That's how we move forward - robust debate and lightbulb moments.

LinkC wrote

One thing I see missing is that if a participant, amateur or pro, posts misinformation, they should expect to be challenged and/or corrected. If we expect to be a valuable source of information and advice, accuracy is a must. And we should all be vigilent about weeding out what isn't.

I expect to be challenged/corrected when I post advice, recommendations, findings, numbers, calculations, methodologies, ... that don't pass "muster" in the eyes of the reader. When someone feels that I don't have sufficient facts to justify my posting, I want to know. A public disagreement allows me the opportunity to provide more facts, explanation, or rationale to support my posting, OR, more importantly, to discover that my posting is not supportable with the facts I have at hand.

I believe that challenging, correcting, supporting. affirming, ... forum postings is absolutely necessary in order to build this impressive storehouse of information that has and is proving so helpful to each of us. I don't expect to change my approach to posting anytime soon.

Various postings refer to a "Professional". Here are three definitions from my Webster's Deluxe Unabridged Dictionary (the 2000+ page version that takes two hands to pick up):

Professional (noun)
1. A person belonging to one of the professions.
2. A person who makes some activity not usually followed for gain, such as a sport, the source of his livelihood.

Professional (adjective)
1. of, engaged in, or worthy of the high standards of a profession.
2. making some activity, not usually followed for gain, such as a sport, the source of one's livelihood.
3. engaged in by professionals (sense 2); as professional hockey.
4. engaged in a specified occupation for pay or as a means of livelihood; as a professional writer.
5. having much experience and great skill in a specified role; as , a professional rabble-rouser.

Profession (noun)
1. a professing, or declaring; avowal, whether true or pretended; as, a profession of faith.
2. (a) the avowal of belief in a religion; (b) a faith or religion professed.
3. a vocation or occupation requiring advanced training in some liberal art or science, and usually involving
mental rather than manual work, as teaching, engineering, writing, etc.; especially, medicine, law, or theology
(formerly called the learned professions).
"The student who has read much in his profession is saved from innumerable blunders" - John Bach McMaster.
4. the collective body of persons engaged or practicing a particular calling or vocation.
5. the act by which a novice becomes a member of a religious order or congregation.

I often find myself not appreciating or understanding the use or ramifications of a word choice. That is when I make a beeline for my Webster's. I hope the above definitions shed some light on what is a profession and a professional.

LinkC wrote:One thing I see missing is that if a participant, amateur or pro, posts misinformation, they should expect to be challenged and/or corrected. If we expect to be a valuable source of information and advice, accuracy is a must. And we should all be vigilent about weeding out what isn't.

That being said, we're all human. (Well, except for the monkeys and cats... )

I consider myself an amateur and will always be, so now I'm second guessing myself about possibly posting misinformation here should I be "challenged and/or corrected". That all depends on how one "challenges and/or corrects" and how words are chosen to do that. I see a growing lack of civility on some of these threads that I never noticed before and from people who otherwise have so much knowledge to give and who I respect. I come here to learn, share experiences and try to help those who are struggling if I can, as well as to sometimes just relax and have some light-hearted moments with the friends I've made here. Being invisible doesn't give one the right to be hurtful and sometimes even insulting. We should be thinking of each other as "family" or even closer as sometimes those closest to us don't really understand what challenges we face. Only we know. Let's not chase any more newbies away as I know for a fact we have from PMs I have received.

When I was new here (seems so long ago) I ran into my first "ugly" thread. It was a pissing contest that degraded into personal attacks and went on and on and on. I remember feeling like finding out that the oasis I had found on my desperate cpap journey was just a mirage. I was so disappointed, as much in myself as in others, as I couldn't get my brain around how I could have been so wrong about some people. I wanted to jump in and and say something (or scream and holler) to make everything ok again. At some point I decided that I would accept all the good this place has to offer (which FAR outweighs the negativity IMHO), and dismiss the rest. Toxic threads allow everyone to get to know each other - whether for the better or worse. There's a value in that. Just a shame it comes at such a cost to the "cause".
Kathy