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RogerSC
 
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Re: OT - Net Neutrality

Postby RogerSC on Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:17 pm

Wulfman... wrote:My question for those who claim they only have ONE choice of ISP in their area........
If you've had "net neutrality" for the last two years.......Why don't you have MORE choices by now?


Den

.


Claim? Claim? You think that people are lying to you? To what end? We have only one choice for broadband, Comcast. I could go with AT&T and get 0.768Mbps, but choose not to penalize myself by doing that.

Anyways, that's like asking, cars are too expensive, why aren't there more car companies? Or that classic chestnut, "Don't like the price of cars? Start your own car company". There's a matter of scale here for new competitors. We have a local ISP that's currently putting in Gb. fiber, but it is expensive to put in, and they've been at it for about 3 years so far. Probably that many more years until they get to my neighborhood. But the primary reason that they're able to do it all is because of the monopolistic way that Comcast has treated us for the last 6 years or so. We're all cheering for them, I don't know anyone that isn't ready to wave goodbye to Comcast. Especially since the ISP's pricing model is much more fair, they're not as interested in excess profits as providing service (as opposed to Comcast) and making a fair profit. Which I'm fully behind.

I want businesses to make a fair profit, since I need their services. But when they are thrust into a monopolistic position, apparently the temptation to treat customers like crap and overcharge is just too great. Comcast has also avoided infrastructure investment in our area, because they could, virtually no competition. We were at 25Mbps for their "blast" tier when Comcast in a nearby, more urban area where there's actually competition, was supplying 100Mbps+ for less cost ("performance" tier). The threat of the local ISP putting in fiber, that I mentioned above, caused Comcast to raise our speed to 150Mbps for the same tier. It was clearly done to make the fiber effort be less attractive, and has worked to some extent. When your download speed is held low for years, and then suddenly jumped by a factor of 6, you know that something unusual is going on. However, the cost is still exorbitant. I was on the "blast" tier, and recently backed down to the "performance" tier to pay less. I still get acceptable performance and am still paying through the nose for internet. More than the local ISP will charge for 1Gb. when their fiber lines are in.

Anyways, in our case it's Comcast's monopolistic behavior that's keeping the cost up. That's part of "net neutrality" as was recently formulated, that ISP's are regulated as common carriers rather than allowed to get excess profits from their monopolistic positions. Interesting that you would ask about why this monopolistic behavior doesn't cause competition to arise. It can, but the uptake of competition is slow, since they have a lot of work to do to put in their network, and generally finance it by the increased income from their growing network. That way they're not incurring debt, which would force them to charge higher prices to cover payments on that debt.

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Goofproof
 
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Re: OT - Net Neutrality

Postby Goofproof on Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:35 pm

So, yes, it sounds like I AM better off than many around the country. So, I'm not complaining. ( It doesn't help and I'm not that type anyway. Just try to take life as it comes and deal with it. I leave the complaining to the liberals. They're good at it. )

Den

I agree with you.

Much better, but not at solutions. :roll: Jim

I'm getting my backup plan in place, a dozen Campbell's Soup Cans, and a large ball of string, if I can keep the neighbors cat out of it. instead of Ma Bell, i'll call it Ma Campbell Phone System.

_________________
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Wulfman...
 
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Re: OT - Net Neutrality

Postby Wulfman... on Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:39 pm

RogerSC wrote:
Wulfman... wrote:My question for those who claim they only have ONE choice of ISP in their area........
If you've had "net neutrality" for the last two years.......Why don't you have MORE choices by now?


Den

.


Claim? Claim? You think that people are lying to you? To what end? We have only one choice for broadband, Comcast. I could go with AT&T and get 0.768Mbps, but choose not to penalize myself by doing that.

Anyways, that's like asking, cars are too expensive, why aren't there more car companies? Or that classic chestnut, "Don't like the price of cars? Start your own car company". There's a matter of scale here for new competitors. We have a local ISP that's currently putting in Gb. fiber, but it is expensive to put in, and they've been at it for about 3 years so far. Probably that many more years until they get to my neighborhood. But the primary reason that they're able to do it all is because of the monopolistic way that Comcast has treated us for the last 6 years or so. We're all cheering for them, I don't know anyone that isn't ready to wave goodbye to Comcast. Especially since the ISP's pricing model is much more fair, they're not as interested in excess profits as providing service (as opposed to Comcast) and making a fair profit. Which I'm fully behind.

I want businesses to make a fair profit, since I need their services. But when they are thrust into a monopolistic position, apparently the temptation to treat customers like crap and overcharge is just too great. Comcast has also avoided infrastructure investment in our area, because they could, virtually no competition. We were at 25Mbps for their "blast" tier when Comcast in a nearby, more urban area where there's actually competition, was supplying 100Mbps+ for less cost ("performance" tier). The threat of the local ISP putting in fiber, that I mentioned above, caused Comcast to raise our speed to 150Mbps for the same tier. It was clearly done to make the fiber effort be less attractive, and has worked to some extent. When your download speed is held low for years, and then suddenly jumped by a factor of 6, you know that something unusual is going on. However, the cost is still exorbitant. I was on the "blast" tier, and recently backed down to the "performance" tier to pay less. I still get acceptable performance and am still paying through the nose for internet. More than the local ISP will charge for 1Gb. when their fiber lines are in.

Anyways, in our case it's Comcast's monopolistic behavior that's keeping the cost up. That's part of "net neutrality" as was recently formulated, that ISP's are regulated as common carriers rather than allowed to get excess profits from their monopolistic positions. Interesting that you would ask about why this monopolistic behavior doesn't cause competition to arise. It can, but the uptake of competition is slow, since they have a lot of work to do to put in their network, and generally finance it by the increased income from their growing network. That way they're not incurring debt, which would force them to charge higher prices to cover payments on that debt.


But, it sounds like you DO have at least another option, even though you feel it would penalize you.
I don't know where you live.
Verizon?
Hughsnet?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_b ... ted_States

I just did a speed test on my connection and the download is 9.08 MBPS and the upload is 0.72 MBPS.
I don't know how that compares with others, but it's fast enough for my purposes and I don't plan to pay more for faster speeds.


Den

.
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Wulfman...
 
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Re: OT - Net Neutrality

Postby Wulfman... on Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:48 pm

Goofproof wrote:So, yes, it sounds like I AM better off than many around the country. So, I'm not complaining. ( It doesn't help and I'm not that type anyway. Just try to take life as it comes and deal with it. I leave the complaining to the liberals. They're good at it. )

Den

I agree with you.

Much better, but not at solutions. :roll: Jim

I'm getting my backup plan in place, a dozen Campbell's Soup Cans, and a large ball of string, if I can keep the neighbors cat out of it. instead of Ma Bell, i'll call it Ma Campbell Phone System.


String and cans? Sounds like our systems may be incompatible. My backup was going to be smoke signals...... ;) (wireless)

Speaking of Ma Bell, I heard the other day that there could have been wireless phone systems in the 1950s, but the government conspired with AT&T to suppress it so that Ma Bell could have a monopoly (until they broke them up in January of 1982).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_o ... frb-inline

Look what's happened in the years since then with the increased competition.

It wasn't immediate, but things like that take time.


Den

.
(4) REMstar Autos w/C-Flex & (6) REMstar Pro 2 CPAPs w/C-Flex - Pressure Setting = 13 cm.
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Goofproof
 
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Re: OT - Net Neutrality

Postby Goofproof on Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:58 pm

Wulfman... wrote:
Goofproof wrote:So, yes, it sounds like I AM better off than many around the country. So, I'm not complaining. ( It doesn't help and I'm not that type anyway. Just try to take life as it comes and deal with it. I leave the complaining to the liberals. They're good at it. )

Den

I agree with you.

Much better, but not at solutions. :roll: Jim

I'm getting my backup plan in place, a dozen Campbell's Soup Cans, and a large ball of string, if I can keep the neighbors cat out of it. instead of Ma Bell, i'll call it Ma Campbell Phone System.



String and cans? Sounds like our systems may be incompatible. My backup was going to be smoke signals...... ;) (wireless)

Speaking of Ma Bell, I heard the other day that there could have been wireless phone systems in the 1950s, but the government conspired with AT&T to suppress it so that Ma Bell could have a monopoly (until they broke them up in January of 1982).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_o ... frb-inline

Look what's happened in the years since then with the increased competition.

It wasn't immediate, but things like that take time.


Den

.


Ah! Our Government protecting big business from the little guys, for donations under the table. No Smoke Signals too much interference from volcanoes and forest fires. Sounds like not much has changed over the years. Jim

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amenite
 
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Re: OT - Net Neutrality

Postby amenite on Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:18 pm

Wulfman... wrote:
RogerSC wrote:
Wulfman... wrote:My question for those who claim they only have ONE choice of ISP in their area........
If you've had "net neutrality" for the last two years.......Why don't you have MORE choices by now?


Den

.


Claim? Claim? You think that people are lying to you? To what end? We have only one choice for broadband, Comcast. I could go with AT&T and get 0.768Mbps, but choose not to penalize myself by doing that.

Anyways, that's like asking, cars are too expensive, why aren't there more car companies? Or that classic chestnut, "Don't like the price of cars? Start your own car company". There's a matter of scale here for new competitors. We have a local ISP that's currently putting in Gb. fiber, but it is expensive to put in, and they've been at it for about 3 years so far. Probably that many more years until they get to my neighborhood. But the primary reason that they're able to do it all is because of the monopolistic way that Comcast has treated us for the last 6 years or so. We're all cheering for them, I don't know anyone that isn't ready to wave goodbye to Comcast. Especially since the ISP's pricing model is much more fair, they're not as interested in excess profits as providing service (as opposed to Comcast) and making a fair profit. Which I'm fully behind.

I want businesses to make a fair profit, since I need their services. But when they are thrust into a monopolistic position, apparently the temptation to treat customers like crap and overcharge is just too great. Comcast has also avoided infrastructure investment in our area, because they could, virtually no competition. We were at 25Mbps for their "blast" tier when Comcast in a nearby, more urban area where there's actually competition, was supplying 100Mbps+ for less cost ("performance" tier). The threat of the local ISP putting in fiber, that I mentioned above, caused Comcast to raise our speed to 150Mbps for the same tier. It was clearly done to make the fiber effort be less attractive, and has worked to some extent. When your download speed is held low for years, and then suddenly jumped by a factor of 6, you know that something unusual is going on. However, the cost is still exorbitant. I was on the "blast" tier, and recently backed down to the "performance" tier to pay less. I still get acceptable performance and am still paying through the nose for internet. More than the local ISP will charge for 1Gb. when their fiber lines are in.

Anyways, in our case it's Comcast's monopolistic behavior that's keeping the cost up. That's part of "net neutrality" as was recently formulated, that ISP's are regulated as common carriers rather than allowed to get excess profits from their monopolistic positions. Interesting that you would ask about why this monopolistic behavior doesn't cause competition to arise. It can, but the uptake of competition is slow, since they have a lot of work to do to put in their network, and generally finance it by the increased income from their growing network. That way they're not incurring debt, which would force them to charge higher prices to cover payments on that debt.


But, it sounds like you DO have at least another option, even though you feel it would penalize you.
I don't know where you live.
Verizon?
Hughsnet?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_b ... ted_States

I just did a speed test on my connection and the download is 9.08 MBPS and the upload is 0.72 MBPS.
I don't know how that compares with others, but it's fast enough for my purposes and I don't plan to pay more for faster speeds.


Den

.

I'm surprised that someone who would point out the definition of broadband would have forgotten about a few of the key links they've posted throughout the thread. 0.768Mbps is not broadband by today's definition, or yesterday's. You're talking ISDN speeds there. Last century it could have qualified, albeit at a few hundred dollars/month (1995 dollars mind you). And as for the Gigabit fiber mentioned above, you did notice it's not available at this poster's location? Yet anyway. A couple couple of your links below as reminders. And I also know a guy who installs muni fiber in a pretty well-off northeastern town also being held hostage by crap providers. Those folks can't wait to get hooked up to GB fiber at a reasonable price too. He's been at it for a few years and they're still building it out. Infrastructure takes time to build. Too bad the cable companies have been lobbying so hard in so many states to outright ban the build out of these new plants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadband
https://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/term/38932/broadband

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greatunclebill
 
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Re: OT - Net Neutrality

Postby greatunclebill on Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:53 pm

comcast is an evil company. a long time ago, comcast was the cable company we used. but comcast didn't have internet. so our internet came thru them from at home network. at that time every isp had free newsgroups as part of your subscription cost. well, long story short, at home network went bust and for a time we had no internet thru comcast. so comcast bought at home and every other isp they could get their hands on and became the biggest isp. the first major decision that they made was to cut off news groups completely. of course all the rest of the isp's followed suit and free news groups went away. if comcast gets their hands into controlling the internet, the internet as we know it will go away. their only interest in the internet is corporate profits.

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Wulfman...
 
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Re: OT - Net Neutrality

Postby Wulfman... on Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:10 pm

amenite wrote:I'm surprised that someone who would point out the definition of broadband would have forgotten about a few of the key links they've posted throughout the thread. 0.768Mbps is not broadband by today's definition, or yesterday's. You're talking ISDN speeds there. Last century it could have qualified, albeit at a few hundred dollars/month (1995 dollars mind you). And as for the Gigabit fiber mentioned above, you did notice it's not available at this poster's location? Yet anyway. A couple couple of your links below as reminders. And I also know a guy who installs muni fiber in a pretty well-off northeastern town also being held hostage by crap providers. Those folks can't wait to get hooked up to GB fiber at a reasonable price too. He's been at it for a few years and they're still building it out. Infrastructure takes time to build. Too bad the cable companies have been lobbying so hard in so many states to outright ban the build out of these new plants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadband
https://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/term/38932/broadband


And I said.......
I don't know how that compares with others, but it's fast enough for my purposes and I don't plan to pay more for faster speeds.


Because I looked through their website, documents and pricing and NOWHERE do they use the term "broadband".
They only use the term "high speed Internet".
And, I've never claimed that they were a great place with which to do business or were not unscrupulous. Years ago, some of their former employees told me "stories" about some of the things they've done and they're currently involved in a lawsuit with some of their former board members. Their CEO is a real piece of work!

But, I don't want to put all my eggs in one expensive basket (like Verizon) or some other options and, they haven't given me a whole lot to bitch about.


Den

.
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ImRealPleezApproveMe
 
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Re: OT - Net Neutrality

Postby ImRealPleezApproveMe on Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:25 pm

greatunclebill wrote:. . . free news groups went away.


Forums like this one killed newsgroups. And Facebook groups are now killing these. Technology evolves.

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Re: OT - Net Neutrality

Postby grayghost4 on Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:50 pm

"Speaking of Ma Bell, I heard the other day that there could have been wireless phone systems in the 1950s, but the government conspired with AT&T to suppress it so that Ma Bell could have a monopoly (until they broke them up in January of 1982)."

"I heard the other day that there" some one made a automobile carburetor that got 100 MPG. but the oil companies bought him out and burred it .. :lol: :lol:

And the stories go on ... and on .

by the way I am FOR net neutrality

I am one that only has one option for high speed internet, I can chose between 3 or 6 mips. ... that is not throttled (like Hughesnet or Vorizon)
The phone lines on my street will not support Voice ,,, much less internet.
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Re: OT - Net Neutrality

Postby AirPump on Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:05 pm

Hey Wulfman -
I commented:
I don't want my "dumb pipe" provider deciding for me where I can go and where I can't go on the web.
...and you wrote:
>>But, if Google, Facebook and other "content providers" get control, you may have less control over where you can or can't go.
>>To me, your statement sounds like a contradiction of what you actually want or think you have with "net neutrality".

Google, Facebook and other content providers "getting control" of the internet is tantamount to the books in a library (content) getting "control" over the library building (the "dumb" delivery method for library-book content). Ain't gonna happen. With a "neutral" connection to the Web, you can pick (or ignore) any site on the entire web. Nobody's forcing you to use Facebook (I never have).

But based on your message, you (and your pocketbook) see the wisdom of a "Utility" structure in your low cost electricity provider, and you'd be perfectly reasonable to fight having those costs go up so that a competitor to your current electricity provider could build (redundant) infrastructure to compete in your area. So I think we're on the same page with respect to the reason I don't believe that paying 2-3x per month for my internet service is a great idea only because Ajit Pai wants to hand his Corporate cronies free reign to rip us all off, while filtering our access to web content. (or just as bad, force us to use only Google as a search engine). Given your career, you clearly understand that the technology for "dumb pipes" is pretty robust - we consumers don't need to pay over and over for redundant expensive infrastructure for internet service from. Let it grow organically into markets that are still underserved. Let internet "dumb pipe" connections remain a "Utility" under the Title II Common Carrier rules of the 1934 Communications act. This keeps costs low, and access on a level playing field for everyone -- not just those wealthy enough to pay $150+ a month for broadband internet with carrier-limited access to some content. There really is no downside to classifying ISPs as common carriers (Net Neutrality), unless you're a telco executive with lots of shares in your company. That's why this horrible Net Neutrality proposal has triggered more negative comments to the FCC than any other issue. This goes WAYY beyond partisanship as it affects all Americans who depend on web services for anything. Being in the business as you've described, I have confidence that you understand that.

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Re: OT - Net Neutrality

Postby amenite on Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:44 pm

ImRealPleezApproveMe wrote:
greatunclebill wrote:. . . free news groups went away.


Forums like this one killed newsgroups. And Facebook groups are now killing these. Technology evolves.

ISPs killed newsgroups. They used bogus scare tactics involving "kiddie porn" headlines to do it. All so they could drop NNTP protocol from their offering. Well done!

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Re: OT - Net Neutrality

Postby DreamStalker on Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:22 pm

It's happened! ... The FCC Voted To Repeal Net Neutrality

● The internet will cost $879.95 per day
● Millions will lose their lives
● Displaced PC hobos will aimlessly surf the barren internet wasteland
● Stealing pies from our window sills

Please retweet and save our pies :o :o
Thanks Snoredog, GoofyUT, rested gal, GoofProof, Wulfman, NightHawkeye, snoregirl and all of the others.
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Re: OT - Net Neutrality

Postby jnk... on Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:38 pm

DreamStalker wrote:It's happened! ... The FCC Voted To Repeal Net Neutrality

● The internet will cost $879.95 per day
● Millions will lose their lives
● Displaced PC hobos will aimlessly surf the barren internet wasteland
● Stealing pies from our window sills

Please retweet and save our pies :o :o

Is that why my AT&T stock just jumped?

Oh, wait. I mean, so why hasn't my AT&T stock jumped?

Oh, wait. Maybe it did, and I just can't afford to pay the premium to get that information until tomorrow.

:)

Please ignore the above statements. They weren't really made by me. One of my pet bots turned on me and posted that all by itself.
Last edited by jnk... on Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DreamStalker
 
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Re: OT - Net Neutrality

Postby DreamStalker on Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:58 pm

jnk... wrote:
DreamStalker wrote:It's happened! ... The FCC Voted To Repeal Net Neutrality

● The internet will cost $879.95 per day
● Millions will lose their lives
● Displaced PC hobos will aimlessly surf the barren internet wasteland
● Stealing pies from our window sills

Please retweet and save our pies :o :o

Is that why my AT&T stock just jumped?

Oh, wait. I mean, so why hasn't my AT&T stock jumped?

Oh, wait. Maybe it did, and I just can't afford to pay the premium to get that information until tomorrow.

:)

Please ignore the above statements. They weren't really made by me. One of my pet bots turned on me and posted all that by itself.


Sorry my friend AT&T stock is down about a third of a percent .... they can't afford to throttle their already slow connection. :cry: :cry:

Comcast is headed to the moon though with a 1.6% increase ... ETA sometime after I'm dead. :shock: :shock:
Thanks Snoredog, GoofyUT, rested gal, GoofProof, Wulfman, NightHawkeye, snoregirl and all of the others.
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