new battery technology for CPAP during blackout?

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CapnLoki
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Re: new battery technology for CPAP during blackout?

Post by CapnLoki » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:18 pm

CarlSam108 wrote:I just registered so now I can include the links to my original post -

Omnicharge is a company that just released a battery that has its own inverter, so you can plug a device into it and the device thinks it is plugged into 120 volt A/C wall power. http://www.omnicharge.co
They claim the battery has the intelligence to adjust the power output to the needs of the device.

Some on this forum know may more about battery power characteristics than I do -- any idea whether an Omnicharge battery would work on a ResMed AirSense 10 Autoset? and how long it would last. ...
Sorry about the delay responding to this thread - we had a bit of weather here in New England yesterday.

This is actually a very interesting and seemingly well designed and built power pack. I wished I had seen it when the price was $129! At $300 its just way too much for my needs. A few points:

The power capacity is 73 Watt-hours. That is the way lithium packs are rated. It translates to about 6 Amp-hours at 12 volts. This is enough for one night without humidity at a moderate pressure. You might squeeze out two nights if the pressure (or altitude) is not too high. With humidity or heated hose this would only go a few hours, so most folks would not want it for home backup, though it could be handy for an overnight flight.

The TSA (or is it FAA?) limit for lithium is 100 Watt-hours, or more like 8 amp-hours, and its easy to find these larger packs, often for about half the price, so this is a clear loser in the "bang for the buck" competition. There are even larger, not quite legal for flying in the USA, packs if you look.

If weight is not a major issue, a 7 AH AGM battery is about the same power for only $15, albeit at about 5 pounds. For home backup, or for car camping its easy to use a 35 AH AGM battery, and all accessories (charger, wires, case, USB adapters, etc) would still be only $150.

Although the AC inverter is a handy gadget, they are so inefficient that they quite possibly make this pack too small to run cpap for even a night. My Respironics 560 at pressure 9.5 uses 7 AH when run through an inverter. I strongly recommend using a 12V adapter (direct plug for Respironics, DC-DC converter for Resmed) for virtually all battery situations.

I don't know the meaning of "the battery has the intelligence to adjust the power output to the needs of the device." I didn't find this claim. In general, devices limit the current in by their resistance. At first I thought you meant it could automatically figure out the required voltage, but I don't see how that could work.

This powerpack looks like a very spiffy gift for the road warrior who carries a lot of gadgets, but as a cpap battery its under-powered and overpriced.

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Re: new battery technology for CPAP during blackout?

Post by palerider » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:38 pm

ColinP wrote: Newer laptops (and my Respironics CPAP) have a third wire on the DC connector, which the device sends a pulse down to identify what it's correct voltage is, and the power supply then adjusts the voltage to suit the device.
no.. no it doesn't.

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Re: new battery technology for CPAP during blackout?

Post by CarlSam108 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:11 am

I can assure you that I am not a shill for the battery company.... if I were, then I'd be telling you how great the product was instead of wondering (a) whether it will work at all, and (b) whether it would last long enough to be of any practical use. Sure doesn't sound like a strong endorsement to me!

Thank you CapnLoki for answering my question instead of doubting my intentions.

Until Omnicharge was introduced, you couldn't plug a computer (or a APAP/CPAP) directly into a small, light, portable battery. Sure DC connection is more efficient, but you have to match the currents and find the correct adaptor. Simply plugging in the wall plug into the battery uses the lowest common denominator of regular 120V A/C even if not as efficient. But won't do me any good if the 20,000 mAh only works for an hour or two.

Yes I joined the group in order to ask my question. I have been on APAP therapy since October 2016 and thankfully have never had any issues requiring help until this question came up. My neighborhood has a few power outages each year, and I live in high earthquake-risk California; so this is a natural question.

The only machine I have ever used is the ResMed 10. My AHI went from 41 in the sleep study to under 2 within a week, so my doctor and I have been very happy with the therapy. Only issue so far has been when I travel to 8,500 foot elevation to ski, the first few nights the AHI goes way up; but then settles down.

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Re: new battery technology for CPAP during blackout?

Post by ColinP » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:20 am

jtravel wrote:
ColinP wrote: Newer laptops (and my Respironics CPAP) have a third wire on the DC connector, which the device sends a pulse down to identify what it's correct voltage is, and the power supply then adjusts the voltage to suit the device. It's quite sophisticated technology compared to two crocodile clips on a car battery
Where did you find that information?
I'm Curious as Some have looked at the Resmed 10 and PR dreamstation power adapters and found only a resistor between the + power side and the new third connector. This allows the machine to verify It has the correct manufactures power adapter connected and will not turn the blower on if it is not.
You will need to buy the DC power adapter Cables sold by both manufactures if you want to use a DC power supply.
If using the AC Inverter option you would need to use the included ac power brick that came with your Cpap.
Sorry, I made the mistake of writing my reply relying on my memory and without re-reading up on the subject, but my info (which I had a bit back to front when I posted that) comes from reading as many articles on the three wire power supplies that I could find, discussing it with some electrical engineers, reading as much of the blurb on the 'intelligent' power bank websites trying to find out if they will work with my CPAP and reading a Google translate of the patent application on the Romoss eUSB system. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a definitive description, and each manufacturer seems to use a slightly different system to the next one.

The charger should have one of two types of system in (broadly). The one system uses a EPROM in the power supply which the laptop reads to confirm that the power supply is the correct one for the laptop, so the 'pulse' goes from the charger to the laptop (either way there is communication between the two). I know Dell uses this system. The other has the ID wire set at a specific voltage to indicate what the output capability of the power supply is. This will sometimes change voltage when the laptop battery is charged.

From what you've mentioned, it seems that ResMed and PR use the system where the ID pin is set to a specific voltage (if there is just a resistor between the +ve and ID wires). I assumed that they all used an EPROM chip to identify the power supply (we use exclusively Dell at work), so I don't actually know which system my Respironics uses, but I have heard that people have tried using older Respironics supplies on newer CPAPs and got an error. I just don't have the financial resources to buy all the toys and pull them apart to see what works and what doesn't, and I'm nervous of plugging my CPAP into a system which could potentially damage it, leaving my with a big hole in my bank account.
palerider wrote:no.. no it doesn't.
Yeah, sorry, As I explained to jtravel, I got that the wrong way around, and also hadn't realised that some of the power supplies are dumber than the smart ones that my Dell laptops use.

The big mystery (for me) is how the "intelligent" power banks know what voltage and current to supply a laptop (or CPAP), because the Romoss one claims to be able to supply anything from 12Vto 20V depending on what the device requires. There must be some sort of feedback from the device being powered to the power supply.

palerider, you seem to have some knowledge on the topic, would you care to share that with us? A simple 'No it doesn't", while accurate, doesn't really advance the discussion at all.

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Re: new battery technology for CPAP during blackout?

Post by billbolton » Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:02 am

OK, a few data points:
  • The Resmed Power Station II has a 97Wh rating, just below the FAA 100Wh limit (the technical specifications for it are on page 6 of the manual).

    The Power Station II delivers a 24v DC output which can be linked directly, via a suitable cable, into the power socket on the back of the "Air"" series Resmed machines on a plug-n-play basis..

    The OmniCharge Omni 20 has a 73Wh rating, so no matter how it is delivered, the power capacity is ~75% of that of the Resmed Power Station II.

    The Omni 20 is intended for a variety of different purposes, and that means that it needs specific set up for DC powered devices (see https://omnicharge.zendesk.com/hc/en-us ... -I-use-it-).

    The Omni 20 has some automatic default modes that it initialises in when it is turned off and later turned on again - its not going to be particularly plug-n-play for an xPAP device, so successful use will depend on how technical you want to be.
In terms of the AC outputs, modern inverters and switch-mode power supplies are quite efficient (typically about 95%), so while there is going to be some loss of efficiency compared to using straight DC (if the target device supports it), its probably quite tolerable.

Now, how much power an xPAP draws from its power source is dependent on a number of factors including at least:
  • Pressure settings (including whether they are constant or automatically variable etc)

    The operating altitude (which now a days is automatically adjusted by the xPAP device) - more power is drawn at higher altitudes

    Whether a humidifier is used, and what its settings are.
The bottom line is that no matter what style of battery pack you use, you will need to do some calculations to figure out how long it is going to support your use of an xPAP machine in your particular location for your particular purposes.

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Re: new battery technology for CPAP during blackout?

Post by CapnLoki » Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:44 am

CarlSam108 wrote:I can assure you that I am not a shill for the battery company.... if I were, then I'd be telling you how great the product was instead of wondering (a) whether it will work at all, and (b) whether it would last long enough to be of any practical use. Sure doesn't sound like a strong endorsement to me!

Thank you CapnLoki for answering my question instead of doubting my intentions.
You're welcome! Actually, I did think there was a chance you're a shill, but I've learned life (and the internet) is more enjoyable when you take people on face value.
CarlSam108 wrote: Until Omnicharge was introduced, you couldn't plug a computer (or a APAP/CPAP) directly into a small, light, portable battery. Sure DC connection is more efficient, but you have to match the currents and find the correct adaptor. Simply plugging in the wall plug into the battery uses the lowest common denominator of regular 120V A/C even if not as efficient. But won't do me any good if the 20,000 mAh only works for an hour or two.
There are plenty of batteries better then the Omnicharge. The battery pack/inverter is not a new design. The real question that is unanswered is: "Is the Omnicharge inverter 95% at ALL power levels (as billbolton might claim) or is it like most cheap inverters that fall to 60% at low output (as I claim)?" If it is 95% efficient, then, while pricey, it has a specific value for some buyers. If the efficiency drops off, then its value is largely in the packaging. Of course, nothing beats the 100% efficiency of my Respironics DC cable.
CarlSam108 wrote: Yes I joined the group in order to ask my question. I have been on APAP therapy since October 2016 and thankfully have never had any issues requiring help until this question came up. My neighborhood has a few power outages each year, and I live in high earthquake-risk California; so this is a natural question.
As I mentioned before, for home use an AGM battery system would be a much better choice. You could get 40 times as much power for the same price.

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Re: new battery technology for CPAP during blackout?

Post by palerider » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:28 am

ColinP wrote:palerider, you seem to have some knowledge on the topic, would you care to share that with us? A simple 'No it doesn't", while accurate, doesn't really advance the discussion at all.
too many old discussions to dig up at this point. if you want to know, there's google, site:cpaptalk.com or site:apneaboard.com

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Re: new battery technology for CPAP during blackout?

Post by LoBattery » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:58 am

ColinP wrote:palerider, you seem to have some knowledge on the topic, would you care to share that with us? A simple 'No it doesn't", while accurate, doesn't really advance the discussion at all.
You would be better served by discussing it with my dog.
Seeing and believing are often both wrong. FOW

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Re: new battery technology for CPAP during blackout?

Post by palerider » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:04 pm

LoBattery wrote:
ColinP wrote:palerider, you seem to have some knowledge on the topic, would you care to share that with us? A simple 'No it doesn't", while accurate, doesn't really advance the discussion at all.
You would be better served by discussing it with my dog.
your dog would make better posts than you....

seriously? viewtopic/t115925/AHI-chasing-numbers.html

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Re: new battery technology for CPAP during blackout?

Post by gosman » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:29 pm

So I have the ResMed S9 with 12vdc convertor. So simply put, what cheaper battery system out there takes a cigarette charger input that will run my cPap for a couple of nights?

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Re: new battery technology for CPAP during blackout?

Post by CapnLoki » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:55 pm

gosman wrote:So I have the ResMed S9 with 12vdc convertor. So simply put, what cheaper battery system out there takes a cigarette charger input that will run my cPap for a couple of nights?
The original poster of this thread specifically said "during blackout" so your question is easily answered by the AGM system outlined in this link:
viewtopic.php?t=102775
The cost depends on how much power you need.

As has been noted, Lithium have some issues as emergency backup. However, if you want it for flying or hiking, there are several solutions that have been mentioned here. Search for "32000" for one of the more popular packs.

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Re: new battery technology for CPAP during blackout?

Post by Coloneldad » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:17 pm

Great information here.

However I am a bit lost when folks start talking numbers and such. While a bit of an electronics dunce, I am decent with math so if someone was kind enough to give some basic definitions and then formulas for figuring the usage limits power draws and such for batteries so that I could look at systems myself and firgure them out without having to continually ask the experts here on every minute point.

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Re: new battery technology for CPAP during blackout?

Post by CapnLoki » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:33 pm

Coloneldad wrote:Great information here.

However I am a bit lost when folks start talking numbers and such. While a bit of an electronics dunce, I am decent with math so if someone was kind enough to give some basic definitions and then formulas for figuring the usage limits power draws and such for batteries so that I could look at systems myself and firgure them out without having to continually ask the experts here on every minute point.
I added a note in the "Choosing a Battery" thread
viewtopic/t114012/Choosing-a-Battery.html

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