Can EPR cause clusters of centrals?

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alexander
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Can EPR cause clusters of centrals?

Post by alexander » Mon Oct 12, 2015 10:42 am

Edited out.
Last edited by alexander on Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:20 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Pugsy
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Re: Can EPR cause clusters of centrals?

Post by Pugsy » Mon Oct 12, 2015 11:04 am

Is it possible that you were awake or partially awake when the centrals are being flagged?
That's usually what is happening when we see clusters like this. The machine doesn't know if you are awake or not as it only records air flow and our awake/semi awake breathing is much more irregular than our asleep breathing and it is not uncommon at all for awake centrals to be flagged.

While EPR can cause centrals in a small percentage of people who use it when that happens we usually see the centrals happen all night long and not just in brief clusters like you are showing.
Since EPR is used all night long the centrals happen all night long if a person happens to be in that very small subset of people who find that centrals pop up because of EPR.

Did you know that you can set the machine so that EPR is not used full time...like maybe use it during ramp time only. Ramp pressures can be set to your regular pressure so that you don't have to use less pressure in ramp if you don't want to.

Oh...EPR doesn't/can't even kick in when the starting pressure is 4 cm. The machine can't go below 4 cm so if you are using 4 cm there is no reduction at all until the pressure climbs and it shouldn't be climbing while awake.

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alexander
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Re: Can EPR cause clusters of centrals?

Post by alexander » Mon Oct 12, 2015 11:17 am

Edited out.
Last edited by alexander on Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Pugsy
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Re: Can EPR cause clusters of centrals?

Post by Pugsy » Mon Oct 12, 2015 11:35 am

You would be surprised at how long we might hold our breath while awake and not realize it.

Even if these were all "real" centrals (which I doubt they are all real), while I know it seems like there is a large number of them, this early in cpap therapy it is unlikely the doctors will get very concerned.

Now there is a thing called sleep onset centrals or when we transition to sleep stages that centrals will occur.
This is considered a normal occurrence and not usually something that anyone needs to do anything about unless they are happening in really large numbers or causing desats or waking a person up so much they never get past sleep onset.

Did you also know that it is common for a person to wake up or have an arousal say after REM stage sleep?
We usually don't remember it but when it happens it increases the chances of having another sleep onset central as we fall back to sleep. Anytime there is any sort of awakening or arousal then there is going to be a subsequent transition stage back to sleep so it wouldn't be abnormal to have a sleep onset central happen at that time.

Do I think that EPR is causing your centrals? No. While it can it a very small subset of people when it does we are talking very large numbers all night long. If it were that common then EPR wouldn't be considered a comfort feature and wouldn't be so easily available to change if it was that big of a potential problem.

I think most likely that you are seeing probably some awake breathing getting flagged by mistake and maybe a handful of sleep onset centrals thrown in.
You can zoom in on the flow rate and look at the breathing pattern and get an idea if you were awake or asleep....but it takes a bit of experience to recognize the difference. Asleep breathing is much more rhythmic and even...awake/semi awake breathing is ragged and shows a lot of rapid up and down of the flow rate line.

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alexander
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Re: Can EPR cause clusters of centrals?

Post by alexander » Mon Oct 12, 2015 11:55 am

Edited out.
Last edited by alexander on Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Pugsy
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Re: Can EPR cause clusters of centrals?

Post by Pugsy » Mon Oct 12, 2015 12:24 pm

You've zoomed in just a little to closely. Need to see a little more of the overall pattern.
Find a spot with nothing going on that looks like nice even asleep breathing and compare the breaths with what you are seeing before and after the pauses.

Look at the time period starting around 1:28:00 and lasting about a minute. Things look a bit ragged and not nice an even.
I am not the greatest at evaluating things at this level under the microscope but it looks a little bit like what we call SWJ (Sleep/Wake/Junk) to me. I would suspect a partial arousal of some sort going on.

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alexander
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Re: Can EPR cause clusters of centrals?

Post by alexander » Mon Oct 12, 2015 12:53 pm

Edited out.
Last edited by alexander on Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Pugsy
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Re: Can EPR cause clusters of centrals?

Post by Pugsy » Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:10 pm

You know some people find that the variations in pressure of apap mode is a disturbing factor in their sleep quality. Not everyone needs apap mode or necessarily does better with apap mode or can sleep through the changes in pressure.
APAP mode is particularly useful when there are some pretty major changes in pressure needs like for supine sleeping or REM stage sleep but not everyone will have a need to use apap mode so that they can use a lower pressure for the bulk of the night and let the machine increase as needed for supine sleeping or REM sleep.
My REM sleep often needs 6 to 8 cm more pressure and since the pressure changes don't bother me I choose to use apap because otherwise I would have to use 18 cm all night instead of around 10 for the bulk of the night and let the machine go to 18 only if and when it is needed.

If you don't have substantial pressure needs differences then there's really nothing to gain with your using apap mode anyway.

With time (and a lot of experience looking at those flow rate graphs) you will get a better feel for what it shows but it takes a lot of looking to learn what your normal is.
Even now with all the experience I have, I find that sometimes I just have to say "it looks like" so and so.
Sometimes it is real obvious that we are awake but sometimes not so obvious.
I learned a lot by studying the known sleep onset pattern at the beginning of the night. That's when things are usually much more noticeable in terms of the differences.

Take your time and don't try to understand every little thing immediately. Our sleep is always changing and it makes for a lot of difficult studying. Concentrate for now on simply getting comfortable and sleeping as soundly as possible. Don't go making changes based on one night's data unless the experiment results in some really bad experience. The data in terms of AHI will vary from night to night even if you don't change anything. So give yourself some time with each change (and only make one change at a time) so that you can better evaluate the results. In other words pick something and stick with it for a period of time and don't go changing things unless something bad happens.

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archangle
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Re: Can EPR cause clusters of centrals?

Post by archangle » Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:11 pm

EPR vs. CA is definitely a trial and error thing. It may help, it may hurt.

Yet another example of why everyone needs a fully data capable CPAP and needs to check the results if problems occur.

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