Dream Sleep Arousal Question

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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Macpage
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Re: Dream Sleep Arousal Question

Post by Macpage » Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:50 am

Pugsy wrote:+1 to what Robysue said...saves me from typing it again

I have other health issues that affect both my sleep quality and how I feel during the day. The best cpap therapy in the world can't fix those issues except maybe allow me to deal with it a little less stressfully.
In terms of remembering dreams...you know it's normal to have a quick arousal that you may or may not remember, at the end of REM stage. So remembering a dream doesn't automatically mean there is something wrong with cpap therapy.
Agree. It's seems like I would have remembered some here or there before treatment just by chance if the SDB wasn't messing things up. I have to think that it's a step in the right direction now.

Best,

Mike

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Re: Dream Sleep Arousal Question

Post by robysue » Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:39 am

Macpage wrote:
robysue wrote:My own personal take on when to start looking at other factors outside of SDB if one isn't progressing as well as one thinks s/he should?
Thanks so much for the detailed response. I guess I've thought a lot about all of these aspects, but I must be honest. Even with reading vast amounts of posts and data, I'm just not knowledgeable enough to really judge my situation.
Start with the objective stuff: How does your CPAP therapy look on paper? Can you post a typical night? And think really hard about whether you are still dealing with comfort issues.

Then move on to:
I'm also not sure I really trust myself to accurately assess things at the moment. If my mental state is being influenced by anxiety/depression, stress, sleep fragmentation, etc., I might be steering myself into conclusions or assumptions that might not be accurate, logical, or for my best.
Sometimes the best thing to do is to try to step out of figuring out whether A causes B or B causes A, and just document what's going on objectively.

You might also find it useful to keep a very short, objective journal of what symptoms (anxiety, depression, stress, sleep fragmentation, etc) you actually have each day and some kind of quick 0-5 scale for rating the intensity of each symptom. Once you know how much anxiety, depression, stress, and/or sleep fragmentation you are dealing with from day to day, it may be easier to sort out which of these things are the largest influences on how you feel each day.
It's seems like I would have remembered some [dreams] here or there before treatment just by chance if the SDB wasn't messing things up. I have to think that it's a step in the right direction now.
In regards to dreaming and waking from dreams: If you are on (or have recently discontinued or changed the dose of) any medication for your mood problems or your anxiety problems, you should look at the potential side affects. Some of them tend to suppress REM sleep and some don't.

Untreated OSA can suppress REM sleep pretty severely: If the number of apneas increases significantly when you enter REM, then the body's response is to arouse every time you hit REM and the number of events increase. Intuitively you can think of it this way: If your body feels as though it's in danger of suffocating every time you got into REM, the body learns to avoid as much as possible and/or get out of REM as soon as possible. For some people with untreated OSA, they never remember dreaming because they're getting so little REM sleep. For other people with untreated OSA, they remember lots of really bad dreams (often with a choking/suffocation theme in them) because they're waking up gasping for breath every time they hit REM, and the dreams we remember are the ones we wake up from.

So once CPAP is initiated, what happens? The body can enter REM without feeling like it's going to suffocate. And so the body tries to make up for lost time by (temporarily) increasing the time spent in REM.

Now if you never dreamed much before because you hardly ever went into REM, all this dreaming is a new phenomenon, and the fact that it's perfectly normal to briefly wake up post-REM is also a new phenomenon. And since you're not used to brief post-REM wakes, every time you have one, the mind tells itself: Why the heck am I awake in the middle of the night? And the fact that the wake is post-REM maximizes the chances that you also remember a dream---so you also wake up thinking, "Boy that was a weird dream." It turns out that a lot of normal dreams are pretty weird, and even disturbing, but until they cross into being bad enough to be an out right nightmare, most people don't wake up enough to remember their disturbing dreams on a regular basis. But if the whole dreaming thing is new to you, then you have no idea that these kinds of dream experiences are pretty typical, and the mind grabs hold of the weirdness/disturbed nature of the dream while it's in the normal post-REM wake and the mind wakes itself up more thoroughly and starts to ponder the dream. And that extends the post-REM wake to the point where it's long enough to remember the next morning. And long middle of the night wakes are more disruptive to the overall sleep quality than short post-REM wakes that you don't remember.

But on the other hand, if you are someone who woke up a lot in the middle of OSA-inspired "choking" REM dreams with a feeling of choking or gasping for breath before you started CPAP, then after you start PAPing, you quit having apneas in the REM cycles, so you quit waking up in the REM cycles and the dreams you have are no longer inspired by the OSA-caused sensation of suffocation. And because you are no longer waking up in REM, you no longer remember your dreams.
I guess it's time that I post a detailed account of my experience. I know I have appreciated how you and others have shared. It's only fair if I'm looking for help that I should take the time to post everything in one place. It's also logical that the best chance for the greatest insight comes from others being able to look at the picture as a whole.
Yes, the more we know about your particular experience, the easier it is to help.

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Re: Dream Sleep Arousal Question

Post by Macpage » Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:09 pm

robysue wrote:Now if you never dreamed much before because you hardly ever went into REM, all this dreaming is a new phenomenon, and the fact that it's perfectly normal to briefly wake up post-REM is also a new phenomenon.
Thanks so much for the time and detailed information. This makes logical sense. In the few weeks before I first went really ill, I recall a little morning brain fog and waking up with what I would call palpitations in the early morning. I was really wired and couldn't lay in bed and go back to sleep. I would guess that I finally was fully aroused by SA in that time period. The fact that I never remembered any dreams would fit in with REM suppression during OSA. I would guess that it's probable that this had been going on for some time or at least had recently hit the next stage of progression.

It explains a lot, and I don't mind the dreams as long as no suffocations or indication of events. I'm taking it as a good sign. It also explains why I am so awake after these periods. I had never thought about simply not being in the "normal" condition of disregarding them. I assume it's hard to ignore years of conditioning in the wrong way. It's going to take some time for the right way to feel normal.

Funny story right on point. This morning I had the worst leak. My pillows were blowing air all over the place and for the life of me I could not get them situated. I messed with them for what seemed like forever. Finally, I gave up and hit the off on my machine as it was close to wake time. A few minutes later, I woke with the pillows perfectly situated, which was strange because I wondered how that happened. I was so upset because I knew I had went back to sleep off treatment. My wife had yet come in to shower so I figured I would turn the machine back on to get the last few minutes. When I pushed the button, it "actually" turned off. It seems the whole leak episode was actually a "dream".

I think I'll put my experience up first and then post some data. Maybe it will help with the data. I've been told before that my data isn't very remarkable but maybe something will show with full perspective.

Thanks again,

Mike

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Re: Dream Sleep Arousal Question

Post by borgready » Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:03 pm

Don't take any sleep aids untill you get the dreaming thing figured out. Vivid Bad dreams are a sign WARNING...WARNING....RED ALERT....SOMETHINGS fUCKED UP. For me it was that my nasal passages would swell shut and if you can't breathe through your nose then cpap is useless. Yes I could get some air through my nose but not enough to sustain life. So for example try breathing through a straw. You can do it for a few minutes but after 20 minutes you are getting some major burning. Yes your numbers on your cpap look good as you are still breathing. If you can measure volume you will see your volume of the breath goes down assuming there are no leaks. If you stop breathing suddenly your O2 will drop quickly, but if you keep breathing but not enough to sustain life then your CO2 builds up and that causes your heart to race and you get warm and may even get what they call night sweats. That's when your really laboring to breathe. These dreams can get crazy bad as they can go for a period of time and incremently get worse in terms of your not breathing right. So you will start out with a pleasant dream situation but as your O2/CO2 gets out of wack from not breathing right the dream will get more and more evil, scary. These dreams will get very vivid as the lower the O2 drop and CO2 builds up the brain noise clears and you get a very clear image of the dream which gets really screwed up evil/scary. Normally dreams will be foggy or blurry because of the noise from brain activity.

There are exceptions to the vivid dreaming. The biggy is psych drugs. They even warn of screwed up dreams. The second is if you are mentally unstable for some reason that causes the brain chemisty/function to get out wack. Schizophrenia type stuff or brain degeneration from disease or injury.

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Re: Dream Sleep Arousal Question

Post by palerider » Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:36 pm

borgready wrote:Don't take any sleep aids untill you get the dreaming thing figured out. Vivid Bad dreams are a sign WARNING...WARNING....RED ALERT....SOMETHINGS fUCKED UP.
again, macpage, take anything, and everything this poster says with a whole bag of salt, read his posting history, and decide for yourself whether you should pay any attention.

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Re: Dream Sleep Arousal Question

Post by borgready » Fri May 01, 2015 11:50 am

palerider wrote:
borgready wrote:Don't take any sleep aids untill you get the dreaming thing figured out. Vivid Bad dreams are a sign WARNING...WARNING....RED ALERT....SOMETHINGS fUCKED UP.
again, macpage, take anything, and everything this poster says with a whole bag of salt, read his posting history, and decide for yourself whether you should pay any attention.
FUCK YOU PALERIDER

macpage you know you got some kind of problem. Just because you got a cpap machine doesn't mean everything is going to be fine. Taking sleeping drugs to keep you asleep when you are having problems dealing with cpap is a sure recipe for death.

PALERIDER is an ASSHOLE that has some personal beef with me. FUCK YOU PALERIDER

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Re: Dream Sleep Arousal Question

Post by palerider » Fri May 01, 2015 12:20 pm

borgready wrote:PALERIDER is an ASSHOLE that has some personal beef with me. FUCK YOU PALERIDER
I have a 'beef' with the crazy, unsubstantiated, sometimes dangerous crap that you spout.

I know nothing about you, and hence, have no 'personal beef' with you...

just the garbage you frequently post.

now, if you have a problem with macpage going back and making up his own mind based on your posting history, as I have suggested, ..... how is that my problem?

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Re: Dream Sleep Arousal Question

Post by borgready » Fri May 01, 2015 6:14 pm

palerider wrote:
borgready wrote:PALERIDER is an ASSHOLE that has some personal beef with me. FUCK YOU PALERIDER
I have a 'beef' with the crazy, unsubstantiated, sometimes dangerous crap that you spout.

I know nothing about you, and hence, have no 'personal beef' with you...

just the garbage you frequently post.

now, if you have a problem with macpage going back and making up his own mind based on your posting history, as I have suggested, ..... how is that my problem?
PaleRider,,, Its your way or the high way. Your right and everyone else are just stupid fucks. Why don't you give critical analysis of what I say or post? No you come on with stupid personal attacks that are just useless. You have a personal beef with me cause all your bullshit replies are directed in a personal manner. Your a fucking idiot troll. Put up something useful or shut the fuck up.

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Re: Dream Sleep Arousal Question

Post by palerider » Fri May 01, 2015 6:29 pm

borgready wrote:PaleRider,,, Its your way or the high way. Your right and everyone else are just stupid fucks. Why don't you give critical analysis of what I say or post? No you come on with stupid personal attacks that are just useless. You have a personal beef with me cause all your bullshit replies are directed in a personal manner. Your a fucking idiot troll. Put up something useful or shut the fuck up.
I've posted lots of useful things, your posting history speaks for itself, never any substantiation, never any references... just your theories.

I'm puzzled that you're so insulted that I suggest people read through what you've posted to form their own opinion before paying attention to what you say.

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Re: Dream Sleep Arousal Question

Post by borgready » Sat May 02, 2015 9:49 am

palerider wrote:
borgready wrote:PaleRider,,, Its your way or the high way. Your right and everyone else are just stupid fucks. Why don't you give critical analysis of what I say or post? No you come on with stupid personal attacks that are just useless. You have a personal beef with me cause all your bullshit replies are directed in a personal manner. Your a fucking idiot troll. Put up something useful or shut the fuck up.
I've posted lots of useful things, your posting history speaks for itself, never any substantiation, never any references... just your theories.

I'm puzzled that you're so insulted that I suggest people read through what you've posted to form their own opinion before paying attention to what you say.
My posts are there if anyone wants to read them. Thats what I put them there for. They are from a cpap users point of view. I ain't no doctor. I ain't no scholar/college puke trying to get fucking A to impress some teacher. What I post is hard core straight from the horses mouth. I don't get fancy and give some technical jargon explanation of what is going on. You won't get that on this forum, not even from you. Good for you that you read some sleep journals and can google articles. What you don't get is that information your looking at is mostly watered down information. The good stuff you have to pay dear for and it remains highly controlled and only accessed by those willing to do deals with the devil to see it and use it.

Tell me in detail Mr I know so much what it is that rubs you wrong. Do your thing and high light my post and what I said exactly, and tell everyone what is so wrong with it and point to what ever references to books, articles, or what ever it is that contradicts my view of things. This should make interesting reading. So far all you do is take pot shots at me saying things that are just personal jabs trying to run me off. If your point of view is all you got then explain it in detail. Don't say you are stupid. Or idiot. Or kook. Those are personal attacks and thats all you have done so far.

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Re: Dream Sleep Arousal Question

Post by palerider » Sat May 02, 2015 11:18 am

borgready wrote: I ain't no doctor. What I post is hard core straight from the horses mouth.
your posts certainly come from some part of the horse.

you post theories that you've come up with from somewhere, without any substantiation whatsoever, and if someone questions you, you say 'google it'.

back up your 'theories' with credible references, you'll sound less lunatic.

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Re: Dream Sleep Arousal Question

Post by borgready » Sun May 03, 2015 10:59 am

palerider wrote:
borgready wrote: I ain't no doctor. What I post is hard core straight from the horses mouth.
your posts certainly come from some part of the horse.

you post theories that you've come up with from somewhere, without any substantiation whatsoever, and if someone questions you, you say 'google it'.

back up your 'theories' with credible references, you'll sound less lunatic.
Which theory of mine bothers you so damn much that you stay on my ass nagging me? Please tell me all about what wrongs you. Why won't you just come out and say so if it bothers you so much? Lets beat this dead horse and make him talk.

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Re: Dream Sleep Arousal Question

Post by postitnote » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:15 pm

borgready wrote:
palerider wrote:
borgready wrote: I ain't no doctor. What I post is hard core straight from the horses mouth.
your posts certainly come from some part of the horse.

you post theories that you've come up with from somewhere, without any substantiation whatsoever, and if someone questions you, you say 'google it'.

back up your 'theories' with credible references, you'll sound less lunatic.
Which theory of mine bothers you so damn much that you stay on my ass nagging me? Please tell me all about what wrongs you. Why won't you just come out and say so if it bothers you so much? Lets beat this dead horse and make him talk.
Wow, palerider shut up. borgready won this thread.
Morbius, are you bored?

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Re: Dream Sleep Arousal Question

Post by SewTired » Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:15 am

borgready wrote:
palerider wrote:
borgready wrote: I ain't no doctor. What I post is hard core straight from the horses mouth.
your posts certainly come from some part of the horse.

you post theories that you've come up with from somewhere, without any substantiation whatsoever, and if someone questions you, you say 'google it'.

back up your 'theories' with credible references, you'll sound less lunatic.
Which theory of mine bothers you so damn much that you stay on my ass nagging me? Please tell me all about what wrongs you. Why won't you just come out and say so if it bothers you so much? Lets beat this dead horse and make him talk.
It's a reasonable request. Instead of telling people to Google it, take a little time to add links so people not only know where you get your information, but can read more about it. Otherwise simply say 'this is my experience' or 'my reading leads me to believe . . .' Or even, 'this is just my theory'. You're certainly allowed to have unsubstantiated opinion, but to not lead newbies astray, say that! You don't have to be a doctor or even have gone to college to copy and paste a link showing where you got this idea. My 10 year old niece sends me links substantiating her justifications about why we should believe something. Pudgy and yes, Palerider have proven their comments relating to cpap and sleep disorder and continue to do so by providing links and personal experience. Heck, I even challenge my oncologist and she provides the reasoning which sometimes leads to a change of choices. Any doctor who just says 'because I have the medical degree' is someone generally to run away from for your care.

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Re: Dream Sleep Arousal Question

Post by postitnote » Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:20 am

SewTired wrote:
It's a reasonable request. Instead of telling people to Google it, take a little time to add links so people not only know where you get your information, but can read more about it. Otherwise simply say 'this is my experience' or 'my reading leads me to believe . . .' Or even, 'this is just my theory'. You're certainly allowed to have unsubstantiated opinion, but to not lead newbies astray, say that! You don't have to be a doctor or even have gone to college to copy and paste a link showing where you got this idea. My 10 year old niece sends me links substantiating her justifications about why we should believe something. Pudgy and yes, Palerider have proven their comments relating to cpap and sleep disorder and continue to do so by providing links and personal experience. Heck, I even challenge my oncologist and she provides the reasoning which sometimes leads to a change of choices. Any doctor who just says 'because I have the medical degree' is someone generally to run away from for your care.
You meant Pugsy I assume.
Morbius, are you bored?