Respiratory rate

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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robysue
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Re: Respiratory rate

Post by robysue » Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:51 am

Fenelon wrote:
Pugsy wrote:Quit the clock watching or turn it around so you can't see it. It just adds to anxiety which feeds the insomnia monster.
If you want to do something while awake to help isolate potential SWJ just reach over and turn the machine off and back on again. This will create a break in therapy that is easily seen on the reports and any events around those breaks can easily be identified.

I am with RobySue...you gotta get the sleep first and be comfortable doing it.
We can worry about tweaking the pressures later once you have some for sure sleep.
She's right...some of those OAs or UAs could be SWJ...the machine can be fooled.
Thank you Pugsy! A very simple yet elegant strategy and one I would never have thought of! I'll do my best not to worry about the AHI until I have slept a bit more and a bit better! Thanks again!
Yep. I've been turning my machine off and back on for years when I wake up in the middle of the night.

In my case, that habit started out as an anti-aerophagia measure: My stomach could handle minimum pressure setting just fine, but if the pressure was at its max when I woke up, I was sure to get some aerophagia before getting back to slep if I didn't turn the machine off and back on to reduce the pressure. So it was easier to just turn the machine off and back on rather than try to figure out whether the pressure was high, low, or somewhere in between. When I turned the machine off and back on, I *knew* the pressure was back at its min, and that was all I needed (and still need) to quickly get back to sleep instead of worrying about the aerophagia.

I found out almost by accident that this habit also lets me track the wakes where I was awake enough to know I was awake. Now? I'm sometimes surprised to find off/ons that I have no memory of at all---they're usually normal post-REM wakes where I get back to sleep within 2 or 3 minutes, and that's why I don't remember them. My sleep is much more restorative when I don't remember those brief post-REM wakes.

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Re: Respiratory rate

Post by Fenelon » Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:38 am

http://imgur.com/a/3ncuv

'Glorious Failure' is how I would describe last night. Centrals all but disappeared but my OA score was the second highest it has been (after the previous day), and at least twice what it has been averaging. I did have a less restless night and fell asleep much quicker - but I will take this with a pinch of salt. I've only just begun to think about the advice regarding insomnia I received on here and I'm only on Chapter 5 of Dr Krakow's book, so it's too early to think I have begun to tackle the insomnia proper, and I think I probably fell asleep quicker due to the exhaustion of the last few days more than anything else. However, I'll keep reading the book and heeding the advice and work on the insomnia issue.

But what of the apnoea? I had a little stomach discomfort last night but it was bearable and did not keep me awake, I was aware of it rather than affected by it. But it was present. Should I go another few nights as is, despite the OA result? Keep working on the insomnia, rather than the apnoea? My one small concern with that is that my insomnia comes and goes with seeming randomness. There's not always a clear reason why it is particularly bad one night/week and not bad the following. It's a bit of a conundrum for me at the moment, and, as always, opinions/input/advice would be greatly appreciated.

Also, I have managed to get an appointment with the sleep doctor next week, what questions would you ask?

Many thanks.

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Re: Respiratory rate

Post by ajack » Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:41 am

what have you tried in positional therapy?
The clusters could well be need a $10 foam cervical collar, to see if you keep your neck straight.

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Re: Respiratory rate

Post by Fenelon » Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:29 am

ajack wrote:what have you tried in positional therapy?
The clusters could well be need a $10 foam cervical collar, to see if you keep your neck straight.
The foam collar is being delivered tomorrow/Saturday I'm willing to try most anything and appreciate the suggestion, thank you!

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Re: Respiratory rate

Post by robysue » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:22 am

Fenelon wrote:
ajack wrote:what have you tried in positional therapy?
The clusters could well be need a $10 foam cervical collar, to see if you keep your neck straight.
The foam collar is being delivered tomorrow/Saturday I'm willing to try most anything and appreciate the suggestion, thank you!
Fenelon,

I wish you luck in your experiment with the cervical collar. But I also want to add: If trying to sleep with it on adds your misery, then it's not going to help with your real issue of learning how to sleep with the CPAP. Again: As long as there are long periods of time when you are lying in bed with the mask on and NOT sleeping, the data isn't as important as the lack of sleep. You've got to focus on learning to sleep with the CPAP. Once you are getting some real sleep, then we can look at what the treated numbers look like.

How did reducing the pressure back down to where your stomach is a bit more comfortable work in terms of getting some sleep last night?

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Re: Respiratory rate

Post by Pugsy » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:27 am

See what happens when you use the cervical collar.

If no joy, then try to fix up something to keep you from ever rolling onto you back.
If no help even with collar and staying on your side then it's very likely those are REM stage sleep events.
While we can sometimes help with OSA made worse by position we can't do much about REM.

I am not surprised about the OAs with the maximum pressure reduction but you have to sleep first and if the belly issues won't let you sleep then everything becomes a moot point.

If it were me (and once I had determined that position wasn't the cause but it was REM)...I would keep the minimum pressure as low as I could get away with (maybe even lower than the 9) because you only need the higher at times during the night and gradually increase the max setting till I found where the line was between a little belly issues and a lot of belly issues that causes lots of discomfort and trashes sleep. If there is a line ....based on where the machine went to with the max at 20...I don't know that there is a fine line available to be able to make any sort of compromise.

And I would be looking at bilevel machines. I suspect you are going to need one.

Now you might get lucky and these are position related and if you can alter the position enough the need for the higher pressure could very well go away and it's sure worth trying for obvious reasons.

But the reason I keep mentioning REM is because these clusters sure look like probable time periods where we normally would expect REM.
I am very familiar with it because my OSA is 5 times worse in REM than in non REM and I would sometimes need 8 cm more pressure in REM than in non REM and I have seen reports like yours on myself when I was using sub optimal pressures for the REM stuff. Only I got lucky and the higher pressures didn't cause the aerophagia monster to appear. I have only had him pay a visit a handful of times but he has showed up and showed up enough that I can fully sympathize how uncomfortable he makes things. He made me physically ill....and it was a lot more than just some burping and farting.

Try the cervical collar...if no joy then try building a wall to make sure you won't roll over onto your back. This is hard I know because it's hard to fix up something that won't move out from under us. Been down that road myself when I was experimenting to see if my clusters (like you are seeing) were related to REM or sleep position. I don't advocate the tennis ball trick because I think it is stupid to add something to wake us up when our sleep is already fragile anyway.
I had the best luck with using a heavy buckwheat hull bed pillow as something up against my back when I was on my side. It wouldn't move out from under me as easily as a ordinary bed pillow did. Plus it was nice and comfy to lean against.

At your appt...get copies of the actual studies and see if position plays a part. And by next week you will have an idea if sleep position is primary issue or if it isn't and then ask about bilevel.
Fenelon wrote:But what of the apnoea? I had a little stomach discomfort last night but it was bearable and did not keep me awake, I was aware of it rather than affected by it. But it was present. Should I go another few nights as is, despite the OA result?
I would go a few more nights like this...and try to rig up something to make darn sure you were on your side. And I would try the cervical collar trick too but like RobySue said...if it adds to the sleep misery...ditch it.

I know the AHI of 10 is ugly but at least you slept some...getting the sleep is really the most important first step because if you don't sleep then everything else is meaningless. Sometimes we have to make compromises and let's hope that this is just a short term compromise.

For tonight...fix up some sort of wall to make sure you are always on your side.

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Re: Respiratory rate

Post by Fenelon » Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:29 am

As always thanks for your replies.

I definitely fell asleep quicker last night and had less of a restless night but I am still incredibly tired and I'm struggling not to go to bed very early tonight, but I'll keep myself awake. I'm also working my way through Dr Krakow's book and will continue to research and work on the insomnia. It's obviously coming at a high OA price - though I've read enough on here to know that one night's data on its own is unreliable.

I'll keep the pressure as is for a few more nights at least and I will try and act on the positional advice tonight also. And I will read up on the Bi-level machines before my next appointment with the sleep doctor, as I'm not really sure what they are/are for at the moment!

Thank you all again!

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Re: Respiratory rate

Post by Pugsy » Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:45 am

Think about bilevel this way.

Your current machine is using 3 cm EPR...so it drops the pressure 3 cm during exhale and goes back up to whatever pressure it is using during inhale.
So it is essentially functioning like a bilevel machine. 3 is the most reduction you can get with your current machine.
The difference between a full fledged bilevel and your current machine....
You can get more than 3 cm reduction...and it's that reduction in combination with the inhale pressure that allows for potentially better therapy at current settings and/or less chance of feeding the aerophagia monster.
Bilevel machines will go to 25 cm if needed...your current machine only goes to 20.
If you need pressures that feed the aerophagia monster using bilevel can sometimes let you use those pressures without feeding the monster.
And some other minor differences affecting the timing of the inhale/exhale reduction.
So pretty much what you have now but will offer a better chance of not feeding the monster and thus enable you to deal with the OSA better.

Now there are some bilevel machines that do other things and those are specialty machines...it doesn't appear that you need one of those.
You just need the ability to do more than 3 cm difference between inhale and exhale and you might need higher pressures to deal with the OSA and bilevel would give you the greatest chance of doing that without feeding the aerophagia monster.

I use a bilevel machine...the difference between a 3 cm drop and a 4 cm drop can be a game changer for some people. I know it doesn't sound like much but it can make a huge difference in terms of comfort for some people.

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Re: Respiratory rate

Post by Fenelon » Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:18 am

Thank you so much Pugsy, I really appreciate your time! I'll make sure to discuss this with the doctor next week.

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Re: Respiratory rate

Post by robysue » Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:18 pm

Fenelon wrote:http://imgur.com/a/3ncuv

'Glorious Failure' is how I would describe last night. Centrals all but disappeared but my OA score was the second highest it has been (after the previous day), and at least twice what it has been averaging. I did have a less restless night and fell asleep much quicker - but I will take this with a pinch of salt. I've only just begun to think about the advice regarding insomnia I received on here and I'm only on Chapter 5 of Dr Krakow's book, so it's too early to think I have begun to tackle the insomnia proper, and I think I probably fell asleep quicker due to the exhaustion of the last few days more than anything else. However, I'll keep reading the book and heeding the advice and work on the insomnia issue.
So there's been some progress on the insomnia front. That's good.

So when you look at the data, would you say the only times you were aware of being awake is around the times when you turned the machine off and back on? If so, then I agree with Pugsy that those clusters could very well be REM related.

And balancing the stomach issues with the need for more pressure during REM may be your long term goal.

But what of the apnoea? I had a little stomach discomfort last night but it was bearable and did not keep me awake, I was aware of it rather than affected by it. But it was present. Should I go another few nights as is, despite the OA result? Keep working on the insomnia, rather than the apnoea?
I would consolidate the work on the insomnia. Once you've got a week's worth of "Glorious failures" under your belt in terms of nights where the insomnia is under control, but the AHI is not, then you can work on tweaking the machine's settings.
My one small concern with that is that my insomnia comes and goes with seeming randomness. There's not always a clear reason why it is particularly bad one night/week and not bad the following. It's a bit of a conundrum for me at the moment, and, as always, opinions/input/advice would be greatly appreciated.
Here's the thing: Until you have really learned how to sleep with the machine, every tweak you make to the settings is likely to trigger the insomnia. And while aerophagia can definitely make the insomnia worse, it is also true that insomnia can make the aerophagia worse: When you're lying in bed trying to get to sleep, there's a tendency to swallow any time it feels like a bit of air has sneaked into the oral cavity. And that swallowing does allow air into the stomach, which increases the aerophagia.

Also, I have managed to get an appointment with the sleep doctor next week, what questions would you ask?
First prepare for the appointment. You want your doctor to look at the daily detailed data from your machine. It would be nice if you could just trust the doc and his office staff to print out that data for you, but all too often when the staff is asked to generate a report, they just generate the overall summary data report, or even just a usage report. You could bring your laptop and show the doc the data in SleepyHead. He may or may not be willing to look at it since SleepyHead is an unofficial software package that he may never have heard of. Moreover, it would be more useful to you if the doc had your daily detailed data to look at before your appointment so that he's not looking at it for the first time when you show up for the appointment.

So here's what I'd do to get the doc the data he needs to see: I'd download ResScan. I would generate a detailed data report myself a couple of days before the appointment and I'd print it out and either hand deliver the report to the office or fax it to the office with a note that it should go to Dr. X before he sees <your name> on <date and time of your appointment>.

If you don't want to deal with installing ResScan and it's not too inconvenient, you might want to stop by the DME or the sleep doc's office a day or two before the appointment with the SD card in hand and ask the office staff if someone can download the daily detailed data from your machine and print it out for the doctor. Ask for your own copy of the report they generate and bring it with you to the appointment.

When you arrive at your appointment, it's ok to ask whether the ResScan daily detailed report was given to the doctor. The office staff who check you in might not know the answer, but it is ok to ask.

When you are meeting with the doctor, here's what I think you need to do:

First you need to tell the doc about the aerophagia and the fact that when it's bad it can make it much harder to both get to sleep and stay asleep. Be honest about how bad your stomach hurts on the worst nights, and don't let the doc brush off your concerns with a comment along the lines of "You'll get used to it."

Next have the doc review your sleep studies if possible with you. Specifically ask: Is my sleep apnea significantly worse in REM? Is it significantly worse when I sleep on my back?

Next have the doc look at your machine's data. And ask whether the clusters are likely REM-related and ask whether he thinks you need to increase the pressure(s) and if so which pressure settings (min, max, both), and by how much. Then reiterate that you've had some issues with aerophagia and get specific instructions about what to do if the aerophagia gets worse when you increase the pressure(s)

Finally you need to ask a question along the lines of this: If my stomach cannot tolerate the pressure increase that is needed to prevent the clusters of events, would it be worth trying a bi-level machine with a pressure support setting that is greater than 4?

Keep in mind that you most likely will only have 10 minutes to discuss what's going on with the actual doctor. So come with the things you want to talk about in writing so you don't forget about them.

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Re: Respiratory rate

Post by robysue » Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:27 pm

Fenelon,

Here are my ideas of what you are probably going to have to do in order to find a happy balance between keeping the pressure low enough to keep the aerophagia at a manageable level and high enough to deal with those clusters of events as well as the insomnia issues on the nights when it's at its worst.

Long term, it looks like you are going to need higher pressure. It could be that allowing the machine to increase all the way to 20 will bust up those clusters, but the question is whether it can increase the pressure fast enough once they start when the min pressure is around 9cm where your stomach seems to be happy. In other words, my guess is that you probably need a min pressure somewhere closer to 11 or 12cm to help prevent those clusters from getting started, but right now your stomach can handle that much pressure, particularly when you are awake, without it triggering the aerophagia.

That's why I think you may need to consider using the AutoRamp feature. It may let you use a higher min pressure than you can currently tolerate because the pressure won't increase from the beginning ramp pressure to the min pressure until after the machine thinks you are sound asleep OR the ramp period is up, whichever comes FIRST. This would allow you to experiment with the idea of a ramp pressure of 8 or 9cm, a min pressure of 10, 11, or 12cm, and a max pressure somewhere between 16 and 20. Turning your Resmed machine off and back on should restart the ramp and lower the pressure back down to where your stomach is comfortable when you wake up in the middle of the night.

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Re: Respiratory rate

Post by Fenelon » Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:11 pm

Thank you so much Robysue, your help really is greatly appreciated! I'll look at downloading Rescan tonight/tomorrow, as soon as I have time and I'll make sure that the doctor has a copy in advance. I'll also be sure to get a copy of my own results from the sleep study!

Here is last night's SleepyHead:

http://imgur.com/a/AZ4xB

A little more glorious and a little less failure, which was just what I needed. I awoke much earlier than I'd prefer and couldn't get back to sleep, though the only other times I can recall being awake were those times when I switched the machine off/on, though even these are vague memories, it will be interesting to see the results from the lab regarding REM sleep.

Pugsy - unfortunately, I found it difficult to build a wall as such, and it was initially causing me discomfort in bed, so I decided to stop the experiment fairly quickly in order to prioritise sleep, so I may still be moving on to my back. I have so much work to get through today but I'll give the logistics of this problem some more thought tonight!

Given what the specialist told me about the abnormally narrow inner nose/throat/ear canals, it makes complete sense to me that I might require higher pressure, so dealing with the stomach issue is also a priority. As suggested I will keep as is for a few more nights to prioritise sleep, as I was beginning to feel ill after the two very bad nights I had, but then I am open to trying the ramp procedure (while also being very keen to discuss the pressure problems with the doctor).

There was a bit of leakage last night again. Today or tomorrow the AirTouch F20 should arrive, so I'll give that a go. I'll also try the cervical collar when it arrives, likewise today or tomorrow, though if it causes me discomfort I will again prioritise sleep. I will also continue reading Dr Krakow's book and work on the insomnia issues.

I really can't begin to tell you all how thankful I am for your help - you're really making a difference here and I'm so very grateful to all of you.

Best wishes,
Fenelon

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Re: Respiratory rate

Post by robysue » Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:30 pm

Fenelon wrote: Here is last night's SleepyHead:

http://imgur.com/a/AZ4xB

A little more glorious and a little less failure, which was just what I needed. I awoke much earlier than I'd prefer and couldn't get back to sleep, though the only other times I can recall being awake were those times when I switched the machine off/on, though even these are vague memories, it will be interesting to see the results from the lab regarding REM sleep.
This is a better night. The AHI is almost in the acceptable range. With an AHI = 6.17 and 6.5 hours of run time, that means the machine scored about 40 events. In looking at the wave flow and taking into account the times where you were obviously awake because of when you turned the machine off and back on as well as the beginning and end of the night, there are probably 10-15 events that are really SWJ rather than real events.

It looks to me like cluster just before 23:30 is probably REM related and the wake at 23:30 is probably a post-REM wake. The cluster centered around 1:30 is also probably REM related. But it looks like you didn't wake up enough to turn the machine off and back on a the end of that cluster. There's lots of Large Leaks going on during that cluster as well. Could be your face relaxes more in REM and that combined with the pressure increase caused the mask seal to spring a leak. In other words, mouth breathing might not be the only explanation for this leak. If there weren't a cluster of events in the middle of that set of Large Leaks, I'd be inclined to just ignore them: You were only in Large Leake territory for 3.96% of the night. That works out to be a whopping 16 minutes out of 6.5 hours of usage. Not enough to worry about---except that it came during a bad cluster of events. So it could be that you were losing enough therapeutic pressure during the leaks to help keep the cluster of events going.
Pugsy - unfortunately, I found it difficult to build a wall as such, and it was initially causing me discomfort in bed, so I decided to stop the experiment fairly quickly in order to prioritise sleep, so I may still be moving on to my back. I have so much work to get through today but I'll give the logistics of this problem some more thought tonight!
While you are working on figuring out how to encourage yourself to keep off your back, you might want to gather a bit of data: When you wake up in the middle of the night enough to turn the machine off and back on, try to pay attention to your position: Are you on your back when you wake up?

There was a bit of leakage last night again. Today or tomorrow the AirTouch F20 should arrive, so I'll give that a go. I'll also try the cervical collar when it arrives, likewise today or tomorrow, though if it causes me discomfort I will again prioritise sleep. I will also continue reading Dr Krakow's book and work on the insomnia issues.
All good plans.

Good luck!

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Re: Respiratory rate

Post by Fenelon » Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:58 am

As always, thank you so much Robysue!

I vaguely remember switching the machine off/on but I have no idea what position I was in when I awoke. I will try and pay attention tonight if I can! I've always been a mover and shaker when sleeping - I am consciously working on trying not to move while falling asleep but I think I could conceivably be in any position when I awake, and this could possibly be a reason for some of the leakage.

I won't change the pressure for a night or two and will only change the mask and use the collar (if they arrive), and possibly try and find a solution to the building of a wall-type support to try and make sure I am not on my back - though I'm concerned that by restricting my freedom to move I will struggle to fall asleep (and with the bed in the middle of the room it's also a logistical challenge), so I will try and figure something out with the caveat that I will stop should I think it will interfere with my ability to fall asleep. I would be happy at the moment for a few nights like last night - I'll keep you updated!

Thank you again for all your help!

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Re: Respiratory rate

Post by ajack » Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:19 am

The collar is a cheap, simple way of determining if you are keeping your neck straight. If it is indeed a solution. You may not have to use the collar forever. There are some pillows that do a good job of neck support and letting your head drop back to open your airway.

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