AHI vs. Dreams and Oxygen Desaturation

[risktaker99]

I have been on CPAP for a little over two months now. I know from reading all the posts, etc. that the "expected/hoped for" result from using CPAP would be that you have vivid dreams each night, wake up refreshed as a result of no longer having your Oxygen saturation go below 90% and stop snoring. If a person could answer yes to all three of these qualitative factors, then can we conclude that the CPAP is working?

In my case, I still don't have any dreams, feel moderately refreshed and according to my wife, my snoring has stopped completely (Yippee, she says in the background!!!). My machine, a Resmed Vantage S8, does give me some info. I do use it in the xPAP mode. I don't have the fancy software or access to any oximetry equipment. I have kept a log of the factors they output on their LCD screen. My question to you experts is the following: Is there a relationship between the level of AHI index and the ability to reach the REM stage for dreaming?

The second question is whether there is a correlation between the AHI and Oxygen Desaturation?

I have been having AHI indexes between 5 and 8 each night. Most of the time it hovers around 5. I guess what I'm looking for is a way to improve the quality of my sleep so I can remember/have dreams which I think will be the result of improving my Oxygen desaturation. Does this make sense?

[yardbird]

Take your time.

Or as Master Yoda would say, "Patience you must have"

If you're feeling better... even marginally so... then it's working. Think about how long it took you to feel lousy and how much better you're feeling now. ONLY 2 months and you notice a difference? That's GOOD. AHI mostly around 5? That's good too!

Don't force the dreams issue. They'll come naturally as you get into a regimen of good sleep habits again AND... your wife is happier. That has other benefits.

Relax. It sounds like things are progressing.

[risktaker99]

Yardbird:

I appreciate the reply. I guess I do need to "relax" and let the "mojo" do its thing. I'm a #'s type of guy and was looking for a quantitative answer...but your reply was very soothing/appropriate. I know I am fighting the left brain/right brain thing.....but how long should I give it to see if I start having dreams....I haven't had a dream in over 25 years!!

[dsg]

risktaker99: First off, congratulations. It's clear that the therapy *is* working its magic already, and your wife has attested to it.
As I'm sure you know, dreams only happen in REM stage sleep, which your brain is "growing" back as it needs. The good news is you may well be (and probably are) dreaming already. Dreams that you remember are the ones that take place closest to wakeful periods, as your brain re-floods with the chemicals that enable memory to stick. You could well be dreaming earlier in your sleep stages, and just not remembering them yet because the delicate brain stew isn't quite rebalanced yet.

Be patient, and you will wake up one of these mornings, tug on the sheet over your wife's shoulder and yell "Hey honey, I DREAMED!! I DREAMED!!"

It's gonna happen. In the meantime, enjoy the sensation of being rested and more of whomever you were back before the scourge of OSA struck!

[rested gal]

In my case, I still don't have any dreams

As dsg correctly pointed out, you probably are actually dreaming just fine. You simply aren't waking up enough in the midst of REM to remember a dream or even be aware of the fact that you've dreamed during the night.

And you know what? I think your lack of awareness of having dreamed during the night is an EXCELLENT sign of good treatment. It doesn't mean you haven't had plenty of dreaming during the night. Not being aware of having dreamed means that you did not have apneas or hypopneas or anything else "sleep disturbing" jolting you up out of REM. You're sleeping peacefully through REM and through healthy quantities of dreaming, just like you're supposed to...totally unaware of the dreams you were having because the good treatment allowed you to stay asleep.

Being aware of having dreamed, or remembering vivid dreams, is not any kind of sign at all of "good treatment." The exact opposite, imho. Having dreams and awareness of having dreamed (remembering them) are not the same thing.

"Vivid" dreams might be fun to recall, but if a person is waking up enough during the night to remember dreams that is not a sign of good treatment at all, imho. Of course, it can be a consequence of the alarm clock waking a person during the last dream of the morning...which isn't so bad.

LINKS to Dreams - Dreaming - REM Rebound

[yardbird]

I'm not sure I understand "vivid" dream terminology. Are we simply talking about dreams that you can remember? We're not talking about LUCID dreaming... right? That takes concious preparation and practice (at least on the part of most "western" civilizations). Lucid dreaming is where you are in conscious control of the dream. You do remember it and it is not sleep disturbing at all.

I am working towards them again, now that I have a machine that lets me sleep. I used to practice lucid dreaming when I was in my 20s. My oldest son enjoys it as well. But it's not something most people just "do".

[Guest]

Yardbird,
Your mention of LUCID dreaming is the first time I have had it explained as a different kind of dreaming. I wouldn't necessarily call it 'fun' but rather 'safe' (under control) as opposed to those dreams that are totally uncontrolled and sometimes become little nightmares or just plain strange.

Thanks for drawing the difference to my conscious attention!

[Bundles]

I have been on CPAP over a year. I feel variably refreshed each day. Sometimes ok, sometimes just run down. I never feel great or good and never feel horrible.

I hadn't recalled a dream in years prior to CPAP and after a year of being on CPAP I still don't recall any dreams.

[sumguy55]

What is AHI? Could someone explain it to me? THANKS

[Guest]

AHI=sum of night's apneas+hypopneas+mixed divided by the number of hours covered= Apnea Hypopnea Index

[skinnysleepapnea2]

I really can't help but disagree strongly when I hear that remembering dreams is because you had arousals while dreaming. Dreaming is natural to humans, and if you are not dreaming then you surely have a sleep disturbance, and are not getting into rem... that happens.
Remembering dreams is another thing, but it too is natural, and I am certain from all the people I've talked to about it over the years, and all I've read both on this culture and others (I'm an anthropologist among other things) that the ability to remember dreams has nothing in general to do with sleep apnea and everything to do with how relaxed you are... dreaming (and remembering dreaming) after all takes real courage... I was reminded of this again when I had a spate of dreams in my cpap adjustment period... still going on... because the meanings are both so obvious and so-- well,its like finding yourself in the middle of the biggest cartoon... being made fun of and seeing your precariousness all at once... being relaxed, having a complex enough character to handle the material of dreams, and sleeping really well... these, I'm sure are what make dreams stick in the mind.
As for lucid dreaming, there is an excellent book on it by stephen lebarge called "Lucid Dreaming"... check his site on the web. He markets material to help you become lucid in dreaming but I think we should stay away from it because it flashes lights in your eyes as you sleep when you enter rem... and yes, this is a bit like inducing a hypo apnea (or at least a mini awakening) and most of us don't need that... his books fascinating however. A better book, in my opinion is "Creative Dreaming" by Patricia Garfield, which touches on lucid dreaming among other things.

[Guest]

Oh, goshes, I've always called these lucid dreams you guys are talking about "think dreams". I've used them to get to sleep each night for years, as far back as a teen and most likely earlier.

And now that you mention it, I haven't been able to do much w/"think dreams" since a whiplash in '94 and I haven't slept for beans since '94 either!

At first I figured it was due to pain. Then I figured it was due to "unconcious" type of pain that kept my neck and shoulder muscles tight and tense and not relaxed. Then I figured it was due to doing successful "positional sleep training" to train myself to quit sleeping on my tummy, which I'd done all my life, due to my neck problems. Then I had a 2 1/2 year bout of a rip roaring sinus infection despite cortocosteroid injections into the nasal sinuses by an ENT and repeated courses of 10 days of an antibiotic. (My family doctor's PA cured that sinus infection w/a full 30 day course of an antibiotic - so much for an ENT specialist). Now they are saying it is sleep apnea. Back in '98 it was just hypopneas, no apneas all night long.

[snufflepgs]

This thread gets me wondering...

I've been thinking of forking over the big bucks for the Encore software. I know in the lab they can monitor your sleep cycles and phases with the electrodes they glue to your scalp, but how does the software keep up with all that with nothing more than your breathing patterns? Is that enough to distinguish REM sleep from Phase 1 sleep?

[puskar49]

It is untrue that you can only dream in REM sleep.

Reference: http://psych.ucsc.edu/dreams/FAQ/index.html

FWIW, I have an AHI of 25 and I've always been able to remember my dreams.

[rested gal]

Thanks, puskar49. That's a very interesting link. Appreciated your posting it.