Standalone humi disrupts auto algorithm?

[TSSleepy]

I finally saw my first RT today, and he seemed like a perfectly good guy!

He did say one thing that I thought was interesting and I wanted to bounce off the experts here!

I am a mouthbreather using a FFM and humidity is very important to me. I have been using the M-series integrated humidifier for 2.5 weeks.

With a setting of 2 my mouth and throat get very dried out, but when I went up to 3... rainout became very annoying (even with a fleece hose cover and the machine below my head level). I've ordered a SleepZone Aussie heated hose, which should hopefully get here next week.

I asked him about getting a Fisher and Paykel HC150 standalone humidifier for the ambient temperature sensing and the larger water tank.

He was worried that standalone humidifiers would affect the auto pressure-sensing and algorithms. He said the auto algorithms were tuned to the integrated Respironics humidifier and the HC150 might affect the data collection and the resulting treatment. Anyone heard that before?

I know there are people here who use APAP with standalone humidifiers. The engineer in me thinks that this is probably false, but I've never worked with such sensitive pressure sensors before.

A closed pressure system is a closed pressure system, so it seems like force feedback from my inhaling and exhaling would probably be the same regardless of the humidifier.

About the only physics I can think of that might apply would be if the water's surface absorbs/dulls vibratory snoring. But that seems like a stretch.

The nice thing is that he said to go ahead and try the integrated M-series humidifier with my loaner machine and the heated hose. If I find that it runs out of water, he'll special order me an HC150.

[sleepycarol]

I have not noticed any difference in my numbers using either the Fisher and Paykel heated humidifier or the integrated M series. I think he is guessing on this one -- but I am not an expert.

[GumbyCT]

There may be other factors to consider- check the 2 links below for more info.

Does the length of the hose affect the pressure that you get?

The short answer is yes it does. The exact formula or calculation I do NOT have. Add mask leaks to the mix and it just confuses things more by preventing fewer (or no) events.

If you are using straight CPAP it is less of a problem bc you can increase the pressure to compensate for the loss. If you are using an auto it can miss some or all events and your software will make you think "life is good".

More here -
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=37508&p=327003&hili ... re#p327003

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38841&p=339815&hili ... re#p339815

[RipVW]

I've used my H&P stand alone HH with my M Series Auto, no problem, no a]effect on the auto mode. I think he's mistaken.

[rested gal]

I've used a standalone Fisher & Paykel HC150 heated humidifier with these Respironics machines -- no problem for me:

REMstar Auto with C-Flex
REMstar Auto with A-Flex M series
BiPAP Auto with Bi-Flex
BiPAP Auto with Bi-Flex M series

[TSSleepy]

Thanks all! Sounded sorta bogus. My heated hose should be here next week, and I'll be able to put that lil m-series humidifier through its paces. If I it doesn't cut the mustard, I'll either make them get me the F&P or order one myself from cpap.com.

[ww]

I finally saw my first RT today, and he seemed like a perfectly good guy!

He did say one thing that I thought was interesting and I wanted to bounce off the experts here!

I am a mouthbreather using a FFM and humidity is very important to me. I have been using the M-series integrated humidifier for 2.5 weeks.

With a setting of 2 my mouth and throat get very dried out, but when I went up to 3... rainout became very annoying (even with a fleece hose cover and the machine below my head level). I've ordered a SleepZone Aussie heated hose, which should hopefully get here next week.

I asked him about getting a Fisher and Paykel HC150 standalone humidifier for the ambient temperature sensing and the larger water tank.

He was worried that standalone humidifiers would affect the auto pressure-sensing and algorithms. He said the auto algorithms were tuned to the integrated Respironics humidifier and the HC150 might affect the data collection and the resulting treatment. Anyone heard that before?

I know there are people here who use APAP with standalone humidifiers. The engineer in me thinks that this is probably false, but I've never worked with such sensitive pressure sensors before.

A closed pressure system is a closed pressure system, so it seems like force feedback from my inhaling and exhaling would probably be the same regardless of the humidifier.

About the only physics I can think of that might apply would be if the water's surface absorbs/dulls vibratory snoring. But that seems like a stretch.

The nice thing is that he said to go ahead and try the integrated M-series humidifier with my loaner machine and the heated hose. If I find that it runs out of water, he'll special order me an HC150.

I think he is wrong and I doubt that you can tell the difference in auto operation with either humidifier or with none. However, be absolutely sure you have the leaks under control. A small leak at your cheek or nose loses a lot of water from the humidifier. Standard speech to men is shave before you go to bed, clean the gasket with a wash cloth before bed, clean your face until it is almost red to get ALL the oil off your face, and use a small piece of moleskin on the bridge of your nose to complete the seal. You should be reading a leak of 39 to 42 with that mask if it is sealing properly. If not, you really need to get the leaks under control first. I go through about 1/2 a tank on the M series auto a night running the humidifier on a setting of 1. It puts out quite a bit of humidity when set on zero if it is full of water simply evaporating the water and makes nice cool breathing.

[MrSandman]

This MYTH sounds quite PLAUSIBLE to me. I don't think it has been BUSTED yet.

[DreamStalker]

I finally saw my first RT today, and he seemed like a perfectly good guy!

He did say one thing that I thought was interesting and I wanted to bounce off the experts here!

I am a mouthbreather using a FFM and humidity is very important to me. I have been using the M-series integrated humidifier for 2.5 weeks.

With a setting of 2 my mouth and throat get very dried out, but when I went up to 3... rainout became very annoying (even with a fleece hose cover and the machine below my head level). I've ordered a SleepZone Aussie heated hose, which should hopefully get here next week.

I asked him about getting a Fisher and Paykel HC150 standalone humidifier for the ambient temperature sensing and the larger water tank.

He was worried that standalone humidifiers would affect the auto pressure-sensing and algorithms. He said the auto algorithms were tuned to the integrated Respironics humidifier and the HC150 might affect the data collection and the resulting treatment. Anyone heard that before?

I know there are people here who use APAP with standalone humidifiers. The engineer in me thinks that this is probably false, but I've never worked with such sensitive pressure sensors before.

A closed pressure system is a closed pressure system, so it seems like force feedback from my inhaling and exhaling would probably be the same regardless of the humidifier.

About the only physics I can think of that might apply would be if the water's surface absorbs/dulls vibratory snoring. But that seems like a stretch.

The nice thing is that he said to go ahead and try the integrated M-series humidifier with my loaner machine and the heated hose. If I find that it runs out of water, he'll special order me an HC150.

I'm not a physicist or even an engineer, but have taken a few physics courses. Theoretically, the added air volume of the HC150 would serve to dampen the transient response of any changes in pressure. However, the significance is not any more than changing from a nasal pillow interface to a full face mask or going from a 6 foot hose to a 10 foot hose.

In other words, DME myths are debunked and busted here on a daily basis.

I've used my APAP with the HC150 and managed an average weekly AHI of less than 0.5 for the past 2.5 years.

In fact, depending on the ambient climate conditions of your bedroom, using the teeny Repironics integrated HH is more likely to affect your data collection due to your throat drying out in the middle of the night after your HH runs out of water and you rip your mask off while the machine continues to run.

[Velbor]

This MYTH sounds quite PLAUSIBLE to me. I don't think it has been BUSTED yet.

In other words, DME myths are debunked and busted here on a daily basis.

I have to weigh in with MrSandman. Anecdotal reports that "I have had no problem" hardly constitute evidence-based science.

I use a Fisher & Paykel stand-alone humidifier myself; different model but the same HC325 chamber. And I have had no problems. If there's any impact on the auto algorithm, it will be in the chamber. Agreeing with DreamStalker, it seems to be little different than adding a bit to the length of the hose. Water-level change overnight will vary the "extra volume", but that's true of integrated humidifiers as well. And the walls of the HC325 chamber are rigid - there should be no issue of "compliance" (changing volume with changing pressure).

But before dismissing the possibility of problem entirely, let me point out that Hudson RCI (a division of Teleflex Medical) makes the CONCHATHERM brand of humidifiers, primarily for hospital use. They make humidification chambers (No 500-25) which are perfect fits for F&P humidifiers. ("Chamber is compatible with Hudson RCI CONCHATHERM 2000 and Fisher & Paykel HC100 and HC 150 Heaters / Stabilizing tray.") The principal visible difference is that the Hudson RCI chamber has a "Fill Plug" on the top, which allows for convenient filling with water. And yet, their literature includes a "CONTRAINDICATION: Not intended for use with auto setting or automatic adjusting flow generators."

Do they know something we don't? Might the "Fill Plug" feature be the deciding factor? Might they simply not want to ASSUME that it will work fine, or not want to go through the bother of PROVING that it does work fine? Do they just want to avoid liability issues? Or, once again, might they KNOW something that we don't?

It's standard on this board to beat up on DME suppliers. And to flout our knowledge and experience. Let's try to hold the noise level down a bit, and remember that medicine is an evidence-based discipline. Or should be. Velbor

[SharkBait]

It's standard on this board to beat up on DME suppliers. And to flout our knowledge and experience. Let's try to hold the noise level down a bit, and remember that medicine is an evidence-based discipline. Or should be. Velbor

I'll try to behave myself...

[DreamStalker]

It's standard on this board to beat up on DME suppliers. And to flout our knowledge and experience. Let's try to hold the noise level down a bit, and remember that medicine is an evidence-based discipline. Or should be. Velbor

I'll try to behave myself...

When DMEs stop flouting their misinformation (in some cases lies) with no basis in evidence-based science or experience, I'll consider holding down my noise level a bit.

[MrSandman]

I finally saw my first RT today, and he seemed like a perfectly good guy!

He did say one thing that I thought was interesting and I wanted to bounce off the experts here!

I am a mouthbreather using a FFM and humidity is very important to me. I have been using the M-series integrated humidifier for 2.5 weeks.

With a setting of 2 my mouth and throat get very dried out, but when I went up to 3... rainout became very annoying (even with a fleece hose cover and the machine below my head level). I've ordered a SleepZone Aussie heated hose, which should hopefully get here next week.

I asked him about getting a Fisher and Paykel HC150 standalone humidifier for the ambient temperature sensing and the larger water tank.

He was worried that standalone humidifiers would affect the auto pressure-sensing and algorithms. He said the auto algorithms were tuned to the integrated Respironics humidifier and the HC150 might affect the data collection and the resulting treatment. Anyone heard that before?

I know there are people here who use APAP with standalone humidifiers. The engineer in me thinks that this is probably false, but I've never worked with such sensitive pressure sensors before.

A closed pressure system is a closed pressure system, so it seems like force feedback from my inhaling and exhaling would probably be the same regardless of the humidifier.

About the only physics I can think of that might apply would be if the water's surface absorbs/dulls vibratory snoring. But that seems like a stretch.

The nice thing is that he said to go ahead and try the integrated M-series humidifier with my loaner machine and the heated hose. If I find that it runs out of water, he'll special order me an HC150.

I'm not a physicist or even an engineer, but have taken a few physics courses. Theoretically, the added air volume of the HC150 would serve to dampen the transient response of any changes in pressure. However, the significance is not any more than changing from a nasal pillow interface to a full face mask or going from a 6 foot hose to a 10 foot hose.

In other words, DME myths are debunked and busted here on a daily basis.

I've used my APAP with the HC150 and managed an average weekly AHI of less than 0.5 for the past 2.5 years.

In fact, depending on the ambient climate conditions of your bedroom, using the teeny Repironics integrated HH is more likely to affect your data collection due to your throat drying out in the middle of the night after your HH runs out of water and you rip your mask off while the machine continues to run.

Maybe you "haven't" managed an AHI of less than 0.5 for the past 2.5 years but instead that chamber has faked the machine into thinking this? Also, I never run out of water or get close unless I am leaking bad or mouth breathing. That is with the M-series. With the Sandman I never run out of water period. It also does a much better job than the M-series with humidification. I did use a HC100 with an old straight cpap and it also did an excellent job but was real easy to get rainout on. I think the HC150 and the Sandman machines use the same technology.

Mike

[OldLincoln]

When a DME calls Respironics Tech Support to ask if it's compatible, their basic response is that they do not test their equipment with other manufacturer's equipment and therefore do not think it is a good idea to mix brands. The DME does not want any liability when the standard is readily available, so they tell you they don't recommend it in whatever words they choose. Mine even had me sign a release waver. That said I am confident the CH150 works OK with the Auto M.

[DreamStalker]

I finally saw my first RT today, and he seemed like a perfectly good guy!

He did say one thing that I thought was interesting and I wanted to bounce off the experts here!

I am a mouthbreather using a FFM and humidity is very important to me. I have been using the M-series integrated humidifier for 2.5 weeks.

With a setting of 2 my mouth and throat get very dried out, but when I went up to 3... rainout became very annoying (even with a fleece hose cover and the machine below my head level). I've ordered a SleepZone Aussie heated hose, which should hopefully get here next week.

I asked him about getting a Fisher and Paykel HC150 standalone humidifier for the ambient temperature sensing and the larger water tank.

He was worried that standalone humidifiers would affect the auto pressure-sensing and algorithms. He said the auto algorithms were tuned to the integrated Respironics humidifier and the HC150 might affect the data collection and the resulting treatment. Anyone heard that before?

I know there are people here who use APAP with standalone humidifiers. The engineer in me thinks that this is probably false, but I've never worked with such sensitive pressure sensors before.

A closed pressure system is a closed pressure system, so it seems like force feedback from my inhaling and exhaling would probably be the same regardless of the humidifier.

About the only physics I can think of that might apply would be if the water's surface absorbs/dulls vibratory snoring. But that seems like a stretch.

The nice thing is that he said to go ahead and try the integrated M-series humidifier with my loaner machine and the heated hose. If I find that it runs out of water, he'll special order me an HC150.

I'm not a physicist or even an engineer, but have taken a few physics courses. Theoretically, the added air volume of the HC150 would serve to dampen the transient response of any changes in pressure. However, the significance is not any more than changing from a nasal pillow interface to a full face mask or going from a 6 foot hose to a 10 foot hose.

In other words, DME myths are debunked and busted here on a daily basis.

I've used my APAP with the HC150 and managed an average weekly AHI of less than 0.5 for the past 2.5 years.

In fact, depending on the ambient climate conditions of your bedroom, using the teeny Repironics integrated HH is more likely to affect your data collection due to your throat drying out in the middle of the night after your HH runs out of water and you rip your mask off while the machine continues to run.

Maybe you "haven't" managed an AHI of less than 0.5 for the past 2.5 years but instead that chamber has faked the machine into thinking this? .....
Mike

Yes, an AHI of less than 0.5 on three different machine models from two different manufacturers ... uh huh, and maybe you are the one being faked out by this thread, forum, and all of its members cuz we really don't know squat about CPAP therapy

Whatever dude ...