A detailed investigation into leak data reports

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feeling_better
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A detailed investigation into leak data reports

Post by feeling_better » Thu Aug 07, 2008 7:38 pm

While I was doing leak measurement experiments, as specified here
viewtopic.php?t=32896&highlight=
I came across some unexpected results. (For background please read that post first.)

This was done using the Respironics M-series machines. I expect this to apply similarly for most of Respironics machines, possibly to other brands too.

For a given mask, as I gradually increased the pressure, say in steps of 1cm, the measured intended leak did not change at all, for many steps. But it was definitely different for two different masks I had tried, and for both masks at some pressure the leak values were in the right ballpark as in their specification.

So I looked into the detailed numbers used in plotting the leak graphs in the daily detailed reports of Epro, I came to a rather unexpected finding. The leak values (LPM) reported are very coarse, they do not increase gradually, but they jump in big steps of 7 LPM!!

When we normally talk about leaks for Respironics of say, 25 LPM, this includes the intended leak, say 20 LPM, for that mask at that pressure. So the actual unwanted leak values we are interested in are generally small, in the range of 5 to 15 (in the above example 25-20=5). So if the reporting of this jumps in steps of such a large value as 7 LPM, then all our observations of leaks and conclusions could easily be misleading us.

Let us look at a specific Epro daily leak graph.

Image
The above is from Epro directly, for day where the leak was not changing much during the night. The squiggles are small and the graph is compressed, it is hard to really determine the actual point values. So I have gathered the data from the database for the same day and replotted manually, and it is like below:
Image
Please note that for the above the vertical y axis is at midnight, and the horizonal x axis is at 4 LPM.

The important point to note is that the horizontal grid lines are at steps of 7 LPM, and all the points of the graphs fall exactly on those lines. This is not a coincidence, and in fact for all leak graphs I analyzed, all points were just like that. There was no leak value in any graph which was not in steps of 7LPM, starting with 4LPM.

Another point to note: Since these are at discreet places, if the actual leak were to remain close to a constant value of say 28.5, the graphs could randomly and constantly going back and forth between 25 and 32 all thru the night! So, if the pressure was at a point where the intended leak would be at a midpoint like the above, then even without any unintended leaks or variations in leaks, the graph could look quite squiggly; but if the pressure was at another setting where the unintended leak was close to say 25 or 32, then with no real leak the graph might be very quiet! So this would result in two very different looking leak graphs with almost the same type of leaks and leak changes at night!!

Let us look at another day's data.
Image
Image
Note that the overall leak is a bit lower, actually only one notch lower, and the values jumped around 11,18, and 25 (again in steps of 7).

Some potential implications
This coarse display of leak data has many potential implications for us who are trying to tune our system or trying to find out how well we are controlling leaks. Let me briefly list a couple.

Many of us here, especially in the early stage of getting used to cpap, are quite focused on the leak and leak control, rightfully so. Controlling leaks is important for effective therapy. We experiment with different methods, such as using sealing gels, taping, stabilizing straps for masks, taking a hacksaw to the headgear, or try out different type of masks. When we see a very quiet graph one day, we assume that what we did the night before was very good, or vice versa. From the above it should be clear, that such large looking variations may simply be by accident as a result minor changes in leaks.

There are always very small leaks in all the rotating type of hose couplings, and angle joints. Though small, once you have controlled your big leaks, they become significant. Whether there is very little leak or significant leak at one of those joints one night may depend on the relative positions of the rotating joint, or the slight changes in pull of the hose at the joint. Such simple normal variations may cause a totally different looking graph.

Sometimes we experiment with pressure changes. A pressure change of 1 cm may look like the leak was almost gone, or got real worse. Again in might simply be shifting the intended leak value to a midway point or closer to one of the leak step values.

Finally, an explanation for the unexpected results of leak measurement method I referred to at the beginning of this post: We have to change the pressure in steps of 1cm or so a few times before we will see a change in leak. Simply by looking at the specification of the leak for our mask, and from our pressure setting, we cannot expect what the intended leak would be as shown by the Epro software, it could be +7 or -7 of that value from the spec!!


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Post by DreamStalker » Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:40 pm

Yes I noticed that about a year ago (in fact I think I made reference to that in a post a couple of weeks ago too).

It explains the zipper pattern where the leak curve is bouncing as it is rounded up or down to the nearest fixed value recorded by Encore.
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Post by ozij » Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:28 pm

Thank for working on that and sharing it, feeling_better.
There was no leak value in any graph which was not in steps of 7LPM, starting with 4LPM.
If you look at the Resmed quattro manual (for example) they say "Note: As a result of manufacturing variations, the vent flow rate may vary" and they mean a variation of ± 6.0 L/min

I've seen similar comments for some other masks as well. And I assume that may true of all of masks be all companies. Respironics place a very big rough unhelpful triangle on the pressure/leak graph - thereby making sure you won't get an exact reading. (http://global.respironics.com/UserGuide ... _Guide.pdf).

Guess they both know why the do it...
O.


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Post by feeling_better » Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:42 pm

ozij wrote:Thank for working on that and sharing it, feeling_better.
There was no leak value in any graph which was not in steps of 7LPM, starting with 4LPM.
If you look at the Resmed quattro manual (for example) they say "Note: As a result of manufacturing variations, the vent flow rate may vary" and they mean a variation of ± 6.0 L/min

I've seen similar comments for some other masks as well. And I assume that may true of all of masks be all companies. Respironics place a very big rough unhelpful triangle on the pressure/leak graph - thereby making sure you won't get an exact reading. (http://global.respironics.com/UserGuide ... _Guide.pdf).

Guess they both know why the do it...
O.
ozij, Is Resmed quattro a machine or a mask? The steps of 7 increment is totally independent of any mask, but is function of the machine and/or their reporting software only.

When they spec a manufacturing variation, it is usually on top of a measurement resolution error. The manufacturing variation is because of differences between any two machines. My other post for the measurement method referred to at the beginning of this thread is for finding such variation for the combination of a machine and a mask.

I can further confirm that the M-series leak numbers will alway be one of the following 16 values: 4,11,18,...109.


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Post by feeling_better » Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:47 pm

DreamStalker wrote:Yes I noticed that about a year ago (in fact I think I made reference to that in a post a couple of weeks ago too).

It explains the zipper pattern where the leak curve is bouncing as it is rounded up or down to the nearest fixed value recorded by Encore.
DreamStalker,

Are you referring to this post of yours in
viewtopic.php?p=282225&sid=539f7f60c295 ... 2a72226123
?
DreamStalker wrote:I think the down blips are do to a resolution issue of the software. The leak chart only plots in increments of 5 L/m ... so if your leak rate is less than about 27.5 it will plot as 25 and if it is greater it will plot at 30.

So you must have a leak rate of just over 27.5 but every once in a while it dips below and shows up as a downward blip.
The steps are not at 5 lpm, but exactly at 7 for m-series.

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Post by -SWS » Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:51 pm

Thanks for that investigation and well-written post, feeling_better.

Were you able to measure any impact in the delivered pressure at the mask because of 7 LPM flow-leak resolution?

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Post by DreamStalker » Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:57 pm

feeling_better wrote:
DreamStalker wrote:Yes I noticed that about a year ago (in fact I think I made reference to that in a post a couple of weeks ago too).

It explains the zipper pattern where the leak curve is bouncing as it is rounded up or down to the nearest fixed value recorded by Encore.
DreamStalker,

Are you referring to this post of yours in
viewtopic.php?p=282225&sid=539f7f60c295 ... 2a72226123
?
DreamStalker wrote:I think the down blips are do to a resolution issue of the software. The leak chart only plots in increments of 5 L/m ... so if your leak rate is less than about 27.5 it will plot as 25 and if it is greater it will plot at 30.

So you must have a leak rate of just over 27.5 but every once in a while it dips below and shows up as a downward blip.
The steps are not at 5 lpm, but exactly at 7 for m-series.
Yes. I was just eye-balling the resolution off the chart ... looked like about 5 to me but my eye sight is not as good as it used to be before I got into my 40's .

But I'm glad you were able to pin it down more accurately. Thanks for taking the time to investigate these details.
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Post by ozij » Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:11 pm

The Quattro is a mask.

O.

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And now here is my secret, a very simple secret; it is only with the heart that one can see rightly, what is essential is invisible to the eye.
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Post by feeling_better » Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:44 pm

-SWS wrote:Thanks for that investigation and well-written post, feeling_better.

Were you able to measure any impact in the delivered pressure at the mask because of 7 LPM flow-leak resolution?
-SWS, Not sure what your question is. M-series appears to measure the pressure with resolution of at least 0.1cm. While I was checking the pressure, during the ramp, I could actually see the 1mm rise, and for my machine, it was quite on the dot!

With my Headrest mask, the normal leak does not appear to reduce the pressure at the mask at all, at least not measurable, for 5.5cm. BTW, that was with a 3.5' cpap tube.


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Re: A detailed investigation into leak data reports

Post by Silver Pelt » Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:27 am

This post was very thought-provoking. Thank you for the detailed measurements and analysis.

I am quite new to CPAP and still adjusting, but I've had an interest in respiratory function for decades, and one of my employees is an engineer who designed pulmonary function testers in a previous position.

I've seen the phrase "Controlling leaks is important for effective therapy." many times on this forum. I suspect it may be much more important in some cases than in others.

As the original post in this thread disclosed, the xPAP machines do a remarkably good job of controlling pressure as flow is increased. The maximum flow available from most machines is quite high, 2 l/s or 120 l/minute. They can't hold full pressure at max flow, but at least some can hold 10 cm or higher at a flow of 100 l/min.

It is the pressure that creates the "air splint" that opens the airway and prevents apnea and hypoxia. Many xPAP machines incorporate flow measurement and flow limiting, for purposes ranging from simple compliance monitoring to more advanced exhalation relief, comfort control (not blasting you when there is a large leak), and other purposes. But it is pressure that is the primary measure of what is required to keep the airways open.

CPAP.com states that "About 40 percent of people who use a CPAP machine and just about all BiLevel machine users lose pressure directly from the mouth. This happens usually through leaks from the mouth or via mouth breathing while wearing a nasal mask." I won't argue with the statistic, and the logic makes sense: if the mouth is open, the pressure in the airway cannot be maintained, and the xPAP therapy fails to keep the airway open.

But I think the situation changes a great deal when using a full face mask. These maintain the same pressure in nose and mouth. Even in the presence of large leaks, say 60 l/min, the machines can maintain pressure and deliver effective therapy.

At very high flow rates the more advanced machines stop recording data, but that is most likely due to a combination of reaching the limit of the machine's pneumotachometer (flow measurement sensor) plus pressure drops in the hose at high flows that distort the measurements, and may reach the limit of the machine's pressure sensor and/or blower. I believe most machines compensate for hose pressure drops as a function of flow, and at least some allow the user to enter different hose lengths. This is why the pressure remains constant at the mask as a function of flow.

My conclusion is that xPAP users with full face masks and advanced machines with full data capability need not worry about leaks jeopardizing their therapy so long as they stay below the limit where the machines stop recording data, 75 l/min or so depending on the model. The more important criteria are AHI and how you feel after sleep.

The situation is very different for nasal mask and nasal pillow wearers, because leaks directly jeopardize the therapy. Leak control is essential for nasal xPAP therapy.

OK, I'm new and just went out on a limb. I welcome comments and criticism. Have at it!