Hybrid disappointment

ghmerrill · Post by **ghmerrill** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 2:45 pm

Two days ago I got my Hybrid and was very excited to try it. I had read what everyone was saying about it, looked at the specs for it, and it seemed like it might be an improvement in comfort over my Ultra Mirage Full Face. But it turns out that the Hybrid is just not for me. I think it may be worthwhile for me to post a kind of (quite subjective, of course) Hybrid/UMFF comparo.

Quick evaluation of the Hybrid:
Concept and intent: A
Execution: D

What I had hoped for was, as I said, increased comfort. The Hybrid does offer this in at least a couple of respects. First, there is no component of the mask that braces to your forehead. And it doesn't cover your nose!! This is great. You can scratch your nose, and you can wear your glasses. Tremendous!

The Hybrid is also much easier to disassemble and clean than is the UMFF. To me, this is a real plus.

But the problems (for me) with the Hybrid outweigh by far its advantages.

First, it is MUCH noisier than the UMFF. In fact, compared to the Hybrid, my UMFF is totally silent. But I could get used to the increased noise if everything else fell into place. From my point of view, however, my noise level went from negligible (UMFF) to full-out Darth Vader (Hybrid).

Second, the head harness is quite uncomfortable compared to the one on the UMFF. I think this is because in order to get the Hybrid to seal adequately, the harness has to pull (of course) in just the right ways. But in order for me to get it to seal adequately (i.e., approaching the "no leak" situation I have with the UMFF), I had to cinch it so tightly that it was quite uncomfortable.

Then there is the manner in which the harness attaches to the mask. Of course, there is relatively little rigid structure to the Hybrid. I speculate that because of this the designers (or perhaps their managers) decided on the completely unsatisfactory approach they've taken rather than the easy and quick-detachable clips of the UMFF. I can only imagine the design meetings in which someone objected that "We don't want to add big brackets to it. That will increase cost and weight." Yeah, but it also increases useability and comfort. The mask attachment design and implementation is crap. It could easily be made better. My guess would be that the mask may evolve into something much better in the future by redesign of the head harness and attachment mechanism.

The biggest problem for me is that I just can't get the mask to fit well: meaning that it (a) doesn't leak, while (b) it's reasonably comfortable. One problem is that while the design of the pillows is quite clever, even in the tallest position it is pretty easy for me to induce a leak with jaw movement. I think that if there were a taller position, I could get the mask to fit without leaking and without being too tight.

And whose idea was the chin flap? There must be a clinical reason for this, but it's hard to imagine. I can only speculate that the design perspective of the mask is "Let's design a nasal mask and, oh yeah, add a mouth breathing feature to it. But let's be sure to retain the nasal feature of keeping the mouth closed." Nuts. I cut it off. That helped things quite a bit, but I still couldn't get reliable sealing without it being too tight.

After a lot of experimentation and struggling with alternative configurations, I'm giving up on it. If it gets redesigned, I think I'd plunk down $175 again to try it because the underlying concept promises so much. But as it is, at least for me, the UMFF remains vastly superior.

dsm · Post by **dsm** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 6:45 pm

Great report and well documented.

Very much appreciated. Thanks!.

DSM

Snoozin' Bluezzz · Post by **Snoozin' Bluezzz** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:14 pm

Interesting and I appreciate the report as well. I continue to be amazed at the divergence in individual experiences.

The two things I agree with are the poor design of the headgear and its attachment to the mask.

Almost everything else in my experience was the opposite of ghmerrill. The short position pillows seals right up - each time and every time whereas I could not get the tall position to seal although it seemed like it should be better. I cut the flap on the medium and it seemed to make the mask less stable for me. I have left it on the large and it works fine. It is not as noisy as my Swift and I don't find my Swift noisy (although I understand others do).

So, for each and every person, your mileage may vary.

This is the 1st FF interface (sic) I have tried.

David

Snoredog · Post by **Snoredog** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:53 pm

Good review, I found about the same issues with the Hybrid I recently tried and I also use a UMFF. If you are like me, you were only looking at the Hybrid to reduce leaks.

With the Hybrid, I was hoping I could possibly regrow a goatee or maybe a beard, but it leaked so badly with just a mustache which is not even a problem with the UMFF. And due to the leaks it was a lot more noisy than the UMFF like you said. When I cinched it up on the headgear to stop the leaks then it became uncomfortable. The part of the cushion that rides on the upper lip seemed to collapse like it wasn't stiff enough to support the cushion in that area.

I found the pillows uncomfortable and wanted to pop-out of my nose. There isn't really any tilt control/adjustment on the mask to prevent that from happening like the UMFF has with the forehead pivot.

I eventually found the pillows so uncomfortable and intolerable for me I gave up on it. But that is not new for me since I found the same with other pillow style interfaces such as the Nasalaire, Breeze and Swift. Some people can use those things, but I can't.

I think I'm just going to order a Large replacement cushion for my Activa and tape my mouth shut for a for backup to the UMFF.

Just sell your Hybrid here to another member, that is what I did with mine, better than taking the hit for the full cost of the experiment. You unload some of your costs for trying it and they get a brand new mask for a lot less money.

nomad · Post by **nomad** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:09 pm

I agree... it was kind of a disappointment to me too. It's a whole lot noisier than my F&P 431. It's almost noisy enough that I can't fall asleep (unless I've had a few adult beverages before bedtime). And the elbow on the front of my hybrid is a very poor fit. It appears they have very loose tolerances for this joint (it wiggles and leaks... hisses at me). If the elbow (and hose assembly) aren't pointing down, I get a small, noisy leak where the elbow meets the mask. That leak added to the already noisy vent holes is somewhat obnoxious (IMHO).

$180 for a piece of plastic that helps my sleep apnea is well worth every penny. A $180 piece of plastic that doesn't live up to it's hype is a hard pill to swallow.

I tried it initially for a couple of nights straight. Each night, it lasted no more than a couple of hours before I switched back to the 431. And yes, I spent plenty of time each evening trying to test fit it and get it right before bed... a couple of hours each evening as a matter of fact. What felt good in test fitting, ended up not working at all during the night. I'm going to give it another couple of serious dedicated runs before I relegate it to the mask stockpile bag I have in my closet. I really want it to work...

sidesleeper1 · Post by **sidesleeper1** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:40 pm

My Hybrid is very quiet. I do have some leaks but far less than most masks I've worn. I like this mask more every night. I , too , watched the video and it helps a great deal. I also have pads on my lower straps. It's just such a relief to mouth breathe. That's why I wear this mask.

oldgearhead · Post by **oldgearhead** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 2:13 pm

..what sidesleeper1 said..

However, if you don't have pratice with a nasal pillow mask, you may not be able to tolerate the Hybrid. Furthermore, if the curve of one of the mouthpieces does not fit you face, you either can't use it or, at best, use some Moleskin..

ghmerrill · Post by **ghmerrill** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 2:21 pm

This was the first nasal pillow mask I'd tried. I actually thought the nasal pillows were pretty neat. My problem (as I mentioned) was that in order to achieve a stable configuration I needed to tighten the mask so much that the portion across the upper lip was causing a lot of discomfort. My impression is that this could be corrected by a bit better harness design (and connection) and by pillows that were a bit longer.

I did wear the mask for an entire night, and certainly there were features of it I liked. On the second night, I switched back to my UMFF in early morning. It was clear that as a long-term prospect I wasn't going to be able to tolerate the Hybrid with its current design constraints.

oldgearhead · Post by **oldgearhead** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 2:33 pm

Ghmerrill - Its the cheek-to-cheek curve of the mask that keeps it from fitting more people. Did you try to build up the edges with Moleskin?

I think before the Hybrid will enjoy large success, the maker needs to provide many more mouthpiece options, or put some kind of 'flex' in the shell.

ghmerrill · Post by **ghmerrill** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 3:11 pm

I didn't try any of the moleskin modifications. To be honest, I just didn't want to fool with tinkering with it at that level -- especially since I have a mask that works really quite well.

I may decide to play with it some more at some point. But the head harness is, to me, a real bummer. Very cumbersome to get the mask on; and cumbersome to get it off. The UMFF just easily pops on an off.

I did think of trying to retrofit a better harness to the mask. But the problem there is even if I fit the UMFF harness to it, that won't work since it won't pull the Hybrid onto the face in the correct way.

Of course, I could slice and dice the UMFF to remove the mask brackets, epoxy them to the Hybrid, then use the UMFF harness clips with the Hybrid harness. But geez, that's getting in to some pretty serious mask fabrication. Something I guess I think the manufacturer should do .

krousseau · Post by **krousseau** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:49 pm

Can you separate problems caused by the headgear from problems with the mask? If the mask "works" but the headgear doesn't-try the mask with other headgear or make your own by modifying the headgear with velcro.