Remembering dreams

[Llama]

I'm a xPAP newbie of only 2 months. I've mentioned in other threads that I did not really have "classic" symptoms of sleep apnea prior to treatment, including being sleepy or difficult to rouse. Since being diagnosed with severe OSA I've been on APAP and tolerating treatment well.

The only real difference I have noted since starting treatment is that I remember dreams now. I was pretty stoked about dreaming, remembering them, having good dreams etc, then someone on another board told me that this was actually a bad thing. He said that if I remembered my dreams that that meant I was waking during REM. I rarely remembered my dreams growing up and thought it was odd, so I figured that remembering them was a good thing.

What's the scoop?

[JohnBFisher]

... The only real difference I have noted since starting treatment is that I remember dreams now. I was pretty stoked about dreaming, remembering them, having good dreams etc, then someone on another board told me that this was actually a bad thing. He said that if I remembered my dreams that that meant I was waking during REM. I rarely remembered my dreams growing up and thought it was odd, so I figured that remembering them was a good thing. ...

Bah! Humbug!

There is nothing wrong with waking from REM sleep. In fact, if we awaken naturally - without an alarm or other outside influence - most of us SHOULD rouse from REM sleep to light Stage 1 sleep and then awaken. It time in Stage 1 sleep is normally minimal. See the following article, which shows the normal sleep cycle:

http://helpguide.org/life/sleeping.htm

Normally with obstructive sleep apnea, you have more apnea problems during REM sleep (the brain "disengages" muscular control during REM sleep to keep us safe - look up REM Behavior Disorder if you want to see what happens if that mechanism does not work correctly). Unfortunately, this also tends to cause the muscles in your airway to relax even more, which causes more obstructions. So, someone with severe OSA tends to have very little REM sleep. That you now remember it is a sign that you are once again attaining normal REM sleep.

So, enjoy the experience. You are sleeping well.

[rested gal]

LINKS to dreaming - dreams - REM rebound
viewtopic.php?t=3524

I'm one of the ones who thinks "remembering" dreams is not a sign of good treatment. I believe it is a sign of having awakened enough during REM to have that awareness (and the dream) become stored in memory.

In two very good PSG titration nights, if I had been asked each of those mornings, "Do you recall dreaming?" I'd have said, "No." Yet I had several REM cycles on both nights. Slept peacefully through them.

In sleep labs, it's my understanding that if a person being studied is in REM, most sleep techs will try not to waken them from REM, even if it's time to stop and the tech is understandably anxious to be done and go home. Of course that might simply have to do with the fact that the more data they acquire during REM, the better, whether it's a baseline study or a titration.

Anyway, there can be two reasons (probably more) for "not remembering dreams." One could be that in the untreated OSA sufferer, some could be having so many apneas --have such severe sleep apnea -- that they can't settle into REM.

The other -- the good reason, imho, for not remembering dreams or having dreamt -- is that effectively treated CPAP users are sleeping so uneventfully (events being apneas/hypopneas) that they sleep soundly through each REM cycle without having it disturbed at all.

[-SWS]

LINKS to dreaming - dreams - REM rebound
viewtopic.php?t=3524

I'm one of the ones who thinks "remembering" dreams is not a sign of good treatment

Well, I'm one of the ones who thinks "excessively remembering" dreams is probably not a sign of good treatment---the one exception being healthy REM rebound after sleep debt . However, I'm also one of the ones who thinks remembering a certain amount of dreams is perfectly normal---for people who sleep well.


The entire Google Scholar search for the terms "dream recall" and "apnea":
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en ... =&as_vis=0

A couple search returns that caught my eye without digging through more than a handful of the above search returns:

After apneas, dream recall tended to be higher and dream reports were longer than after healthy sleep.

http://psycnet.apa.org/?fa=main.doiLand ... -02317-001
-and-

A heightened dream recall frequency in patients with sleep apnea was found.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/pw284066071w6113/


Also, my hunch is that anyone in the midst of paying back sleep debt or experiencing REM rebound will naturally have more opportunity for dream recall---if those people are even "dream-recall inclined" in the first place. By that I mean the frequency of dream recall should probably vary SIGNIFICANTLY across the unaffected population. After all, wake recall and most cognitive functions vary significantly across any "normal" population. So why wouldn't dream recall vary significantly across a "sleep normal" population as well?

So I don't think dream recall or awareness necessarily equates to signs of sleep trouble. Nor do I think complete lack of dream recall is always a bad thing either. Some of us can recall exactly what we had for dinner two Tuesdays ago, while others can't manage to recall yesterday's lunch. Neither meal-recall example is sufficiently defining for either normalcy or pathology. And the same principle probably holds true for dream recall: there should be a wide range of what is acceptable during "good" sleep. Variance across the population---as with most cognitive functions. At least that's my fuzzy non-expert take...

[kteague]

Seems to me anyone who wakes to an alarm or is vulnerable to either inside or outside noises stands a good chance of being awakened during REM. Distinguishing that from apnea wakings would be difficult. But even those with say an AI of 2 who would have 16 apneas in an 8 hour night, would still have a good chance of a number of them being during REM, and a portion of those causing arousal. I think if I lived in quiet surroundings and didn't use an alarm to wake up yet nearly always remembered dreams, I'd have to wonder if I was waking during REM too often. I've tried to test this a few times, and would check my data to see if I had an apnea right before waking, but gave up when I never saw an event in the data immediately before waking. Then again, the building I live in is like Grand Central Station, so it's a safe bet I wake often to just plain noise. I can't even blame the limb movements, because they don't usually happen during REM.

I think my dreaming is a bit out of the norm. I never stopped dreaming and frequently remembered them. Still do, but have more days that I don't - I think. At my worst, I dozed anywhere from seconds to minutes to hours, 24 hours a day. Even the quick nods always included a dream that almost seemed to start before I nodded off. These quickie dreams seemed like real scenes and I would wake myself when I'd hear myself saying aloud something from the scene. I'd know I wasn't supposed to say it, and would quickly say "No, no!" When I was still working, it would sometimes happen as I fell asleep while talking to coworkers. Still do that now and then, but the better I sleep at night, the less it happens.

[rested gal]

LINKS to dreaming - dreams - REM rebound
viewtopic.php?t=3524

I'm one of the ones who thinks "remembering" dreams is not a sign of good treatment

Well, I'm one of the ones who thinks "excessively remembering" dreams is probably not a sign of good treatment

Good point about "excessively remembering." Might be difficult to define "excessively", though, so I'd rather go with a bit of oversimplification and just say the first part.

---the one exception being healthy REM rebound after sleep debt .

Even during the greater amounts of REM during healthy REM rebound after sleep debt, I think effective CPAP (and good sleep environment) can let people sleep undisturbed through that, too.

However, I'm also one of the ones who thinks remembering a certain amount of dreams is perfectly normal---for people who sleep well.

I have no problem with difference of opinion. There can be reasons, particularly as the end of the sleep session approaches, when a person can be awakened during REM. Kathy made a good point:

Seems to me anyone who wakes to an alarm or is vulnerable to either inside or outside noises stands a good chance of being awakened during REM. Distinguishing that from apnea wakings would be difficult.

Also, my hunch is that anyone in the midst of paying back sleep debt or experiencing REM rebound will naturally have more opportunity for dream recall

I agree. If either an apnea or an outside influence wakens them long enough during REM.

---if those people are even "dream-recall inclined" in the first place. By that I mean the frequency of dream recall should probably vary SIGNIFICANTLY across the unaffected population. After all, wake recall and most cognitive functions vary significantly across any "normal" population. So why wouldn't dream recall vary significantly across a "sleep normal" population as well?

I agree again. But again, I think they would have to have their REM disturbed in some way by an awakening, in order to have even a chance of storing the fact they were dreaming (even if not details of the dream itself) in memory, so that they knew, "I was dreaming just now."

So I don't think dream recall or awareness necessarily equates to signs of sleep trouble. Nor do I think complete lack of dream recall is always a bad thing either.

You're right. I was oversimplifying to try to counteract the many "WOW, I'M DREAMING NOW!!" reports of new cpap users. It's my hunch that something disturbed their REM enough to awaken them "long enough" to be aware of a dream. What that "something" was... could be an apnea, an alarm clock, a dog jumping up on the bed, a noisy neighbor, household noises, pain waking them, a leaking mask, treatment noise, on and on and on. But my point is, their REM sleep at that point was disturbed or they wouldn't be waking long enough to be aware of a dream.

If that doesn't happen much during CPAP treatment (your point about "excessively" is well taken) no big deal. My caution is more toward the idea some have that dreaming a lot (actually, they mean they are "remembering" a lot of dreams) every night is good. Dreaming (being in REM) at cyclical points every night is good. Sleeping peacefully and unaware through those dreams, and not even remembering dreaming happened is, imho, good. That doesn't make it bad that occasionally (again, your good point about not "excessively") a person will wake during REM and remember a dream.

Some of us can recall exactly what we had for dinner two Tuesdays ago, while others can't manage to recall yesterday's lunch. Neither meal-recall example is sufficiently defining for either normalcy or pathology.

True. I'm in (well, almost in) the latter group! Those are daytime activities though, performed and remembered (or not) while awake.

And the same principle probably holds true for dream recall: there should be a wide range of what is acceptable during "good" sleep. Variance across the population---as with most cognitive functions. At least that's my fuzzy non-expert take...

I don't have any problem with the idea there can be a wide range and variance across the population about how well each person can store in memory and actually recall a dream. My point is still that I believe the person most likely has to be awakened from REM (their REM was disturbed unless it was at the very tail end of that REM cycle) in order to have even a chance of recalling "dreaming" or details of a "dream."

There can always be exceptions. I just think as a general rule of thumb, not recalling dreams the next morning (except if awakened by an alarm clock or other external stimulus) is a better sign of good treatment for that night than is waking up with an awareness of having dreamt....even though one was probably having REM cycles and dreams just fine throughout that night.

[jnk]

If, when I wake up, I remember a dream (one that I don't find disturbing, anyway), I'm glad I remember it, because it proves I'm dreaming.

If, when I wake up, I don't remember any dreams, I'm glad, because that means I must not have had long arousals during REM.

But mostly, when I wake up, I'm just glad I woke up, and that I remember who I am.

jeff

[araminta]

Good one, Jeff.
Here's to the complexity of it all!

[-SWS]

Might be difficult to define "excessively", though, so I'd rather go with a bit of oversimplification and just say the first part.

Well, fine! For lack of quantitative means, just go ahead and adopt one of two extremes. Your point is well taken about the non-quantitative or "fuzzy" nature of all of our guesses.

---the one exception being healthy REM rebound after sleep debt .

Even during the greater amounts of REM during healthy REM rebound after sleep debt, I think effective CPAP (and good sleep environment) can let people sleep undisturbed through that, too.

Aha! Here we have the crux of our disagreement! You seem to contend that wakefulness is a necessary component across the populace for all dream recall. If so, I must respectfully disagree with that position... Obviously wakefulness amidst a dream can make dream recall easier. But I am of the vague or "fuzzy" opinion that a healthy subconscious mind can, indeed, integrate salient dream content into conscious awareness---- without wakefulness being a necessary component. And I suspect that happens to varying degrees across any "sleep normal" populace.

So far I fail to see in medical theory where there should be an impenetrable neural barrier regarding the integration of salient dream content from the subconscious mind to consciousness---even without timely wakefulness throughout the night to facilitate. The fact that that we can even recall our dreams immediately upon wakefulness tells us that a dream-integrating neural pathway exists---between dreaming subconsciousness and consciousness. So the biologic mechanism is there, between those two parts of the mind, and the conscious mind is thus not at all functionally impenetrable to dream recall.

Rhetorically: how might we support a position (perhaps a correct position) that our dream-integrating neural pathway is absolutely impenetrable to dream transfer without wakefulness to facilitate that transfer? Stating that same challenge a bit differently: why should that biological or neural pathway require wakefulness to function?

[jnk]

I may be wrong, but as far as I know, the arousal–retrieval model is alive and well in recent dream-frequency-recall theories, although, then again, it may have been put to sleep as a mere pipe dream, never to be reawakened. Sleep science has a lot of theories sleep-walking around these days, I guess, though.

Here are some thoughts from one small study in 2006:

"Severe OSAS patients' . . . dream recall decreased the first months of CPAP and recovered 2 years later. . . . A dream recall decrease with CPAP is associated with normalization of sleep in OSAS patients. . . . We have shown that treatment with CPAP in patients with severe OSAS decreases the dream recall rate. This phenomenon persisted at least 3 months after starting CPAP . . . OSAS patients have a tendency to dream less when they sleep regularly with their CPAP . . . One possible explanation of our results is that dream recall is related with sleep fragmentation, as suggested by the fact that percentage of stage I was very high in baseline studies of patients and decreased with CPAP treatment, even below control values. Another possible explanation is that the increase in the amount of stages III–IV sleep induced by CPAP increased the chance that REM sleep is preceded by this stage."

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi- ... 3/PDFSTART

[rested gal]

Aha! Here we have the crux of our disagreement! You seem to contend that wakefulness is a necessary component across the populace for all dream recall.

Yup, I think that's what I think...so far. I'm open to changing my mind.

If so, I must respectfully disagree with that position... Obviously wakefulness amidst a dream can make dream recall easier. But I am of the vague or "fuzzy" opinion that a healthy subconscious mind can, indeed, integrate salient dream content into conscious awareness---- without wakefulness being a necessary component. And I suspect that happens to varying degrees across any "sleep normal" populace.

That may very well be so. To tweak that a little more toward the tack I've taken, I'm thinking now about this... as I understand it, NR1 (the old "stage 1") sleep is so light that it's considered rather useless sleep other than for serving the purpose of making the transition from wake to Stage 2 sleep.

I can well imagine a person coming up out of REM into NR1 (the old "stage 1") and while in that "fuzzy" light sleep of stage 1 be able to (possibly, maybe, I'm really dragging my feet here... ) have a memory of the REM dream embed itself, so to speak, into the subconscious where - for some people - it can be "remembered" solidly enough to be accessible after the person is awake. Even if "awake" didn't immediately follow all that.

Then, too, as I understand it, dreaming can occur in any stage of sleep, not just in REM, although it's thought (or so I've read, if I recall correctly) that the most vivid dreams usually happen in REM. So, I can also accept that wispy dreams or vague recollections of, "I think I was dreaming, but can't remember any of it" could happen with the almost "not really sleep" of NR1 sleep.

So far I fail to see in medical theory where there should be an impenetrable neural barrier regarding the integration of salient dream content from the subconscious mind to consciousness---even without timely wakefulness throughout the night to facilitate.

That may very well be so.

The fact that that we can even recall our dreams immediately upon wakefulness tells us that a dream-integrating neural pathway exists---between dreaming subconsciousness and consciousness. So the biologic mechanism is there, between those two parts of the mind, and the conscious mind is thus not at all functionally impenetrable to dream recall.

And that's where I think memory storage comes into play. And wakefulness, imho, would facilitate that.

Granted, some people's conscious ability to pull something up out of subconscious memory is better than other people's. I'm glad mine apparently has a pretty strong mosquito net in place between the two.

I like the feeling of waking up with no recollection of having dreamed, even though I know -- from past PSG data, and the rare "something woke me up" times -- that I do dream during sleep.

Others may like the feeling of recalling dreams, whatever the mechanism.

Thanks for making me think more about this, -SWS.

[-SWS]

I may be wrong, but as far as I know, the arousal–retrieval model is alive and well in recent dream-frequency-recall theories

Well, you can see by my two white-paper citations above and my own quoted words below that I also believe wake arousals facilitate dream recall:

Obviously wakefulness amidst a dream can make dream recall easier.

I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone in this thread disagrees with that. I consider that to be established medical fact.

But I have to analytically disagree with empirically unsupported assumptions like this:

Dream recall equates to purely pathological sleep.

I'll state again that I think arousal-based wakefulness during dreams facilitates dream recall---and that nicely explains why recall frequency increases amidst pathological wakefulness. But how exactly do we syllogistically leap from acknowledging arousal's impact on dream recall to saying there is no such thing as "normal" or "non-pathological" dream recall?

Not only does sleep medicine presently fail to fully equate dream recall with sleep pathology, but the implications are profound to the field of psychology as well: Dreams are then but mere sleep-deterioration symptoms to the conscious mind... Thus dreams would serve either no real functional purpose to the conscious mind, or they would only provide some marginal albeit highly secondary incidental value to the conscious mind.

Thanks for making me think more about this, -SWS.

And I'm all for fully attempting to analytically support your position. It might be right. And as you can see from my words in this post, I think that position is potentially profound in some rather important ways... If we can somehow objectively support it.

Fun discussion IMHO... So thank you!

[jnk]

My understanding of the reason this comes up so much is that some people worry about not having the increase in dream recall that others are reporting and pointing to as proof of successful PAP therapy. So I think it can be reassuring to new ones without the increase in dream recall to understand that such recall is not a proof of the success, or failure, of PAP therapy, nor is it a proof of the number of dreams that are occurring or how much REM someone is experiencing. Remembering dreams is not necessarily a bad thing, but it isn't necessarily proof of a good thing either, as I understand it, since it is widely accepted that there are negatives that can increase dream recall and there is little proof that successful PAP increases dream-recall abilities.

Is that how you see it, -SWS?

[-SWS]

I think that's a REALLY good summation, Jeff!

[jnk]

I wonder how many dream-recall specialists these days agree with these words that Goodenough wrote in the late 70's:

"Dream recall failures should occur unless the sleeper awakens within a matter of seconds after the dream experience occurs. If arousal takes place during the life of the short-term trace then the content of the dream experience which immediately preceded the awakening may be retrievable from the short-term store directly. Given this retrieval as an entry into the long-term store, the dreamer may then be able to recall some of the preceding content of that dream experience. If the awakening is delayed until the short-term trace has expired, then retrieval may no longer be possible, or it may be much more difficult."

The source I got that from seems to indicate that theories differ on how long the short-term trace lasts:

http://books.google.com/books?id=eV5g78 ... el&f=false