Anyone ever throw up with tape on?

[montana]

I have tried blue painters tape and it works...but ..has anyone ever thrown up with tape on? Seems dangerous?

[elg5cats]

I have tried blue painters tape and it works...but ..has anyone ever thrown up with tape on? Seems dangerous?

Vomiting has a risk of aspiration in the best of circumstances and a higher increase of aspiration risk in the worst of circumstances (unconscious). It's unlikely to be any more dangerous than not opening your mouth when vomiting for tapers....If you put the tape on, you can remove it to throw up if needed. Using a FF mast will require removal for vomiting or a good cleaning afterwards. If taping leaves you concerned, have you considered a FF mask instead?

elg5cats

[GumbyCT]

I have tried blue painters tape and it works...but ..has anyone ever thrown up with tape on? Seems dangerous?

Believe it or not - you can open your mouth with tape on it. No Hands.

Ever try to vomit with a chin strap on? Or take one off in a hurry?

[Pugsy]

About 3 weeks ago I had a bout with the old stomach flu bug. Woke up in the middle of the night extremely nauseated. Eventually did throw up multiple times along with the other wonderful symptoms of the stomach bug.
I was awake with the nausea long before I ever threw up. Sometimes I do still tape when I think I might be opening my mouth on occasion. Sort of reinforces my attempt to keep the habit of keeping my mouth shut.

The tape is not cemented on. It comes off easy and yes, if I try I can open my mouth and break the tape seal.
Unless someone vomits in their sleep (too much vino??) I can't see not being awake enough to remove the tape should the nausea hit. I have never just spontaneously hurled without having some sort of indication that my stomach was churning.

Each to their own and all that good stuff...

[plr66]

Nope. If you are seriously ill with nausea, then it would be a good thing to have a FFM for quick removal, and a handy wastebasket by the bed--but as others have said, removing tape quickly is just not a problem. Do adults throw up in their sleep? When I had food poisoning (prior to cpap), I never had a hope of sleeping during the vomiting phase...so the mask would not have been an issue because I would not have been sleeping at all.

[sleepycarol]

Tape is much easier to remove than the Oracle mask I imagine. That particular mask is approved by the FDA. I can't imagine it being that easy to take off in an emergency.

Anyone had any experience using the Oracle and becoming ill with it on?

[harry33]

taping mouth is bad in theory but OK usually, helps to double tape back on both ends to form 2 tear off strips that you could find and use if half asleep

I wouldnt advise tape if very drunk and so likely to vomit in sleep

sleep docs often say 'dont tape' but from what I can gather they never have apnea themselves

anyone ever heard of a sleep doc who has apnea?

a few CPAP users who cant use hands or fingers shouldnt tape

[rested gal]

anyone ever heard of a sleep doc who has apnea?

viewtopic.php?p=230298#p230298
Yes. Dr. Barry Krakow, who uses a PB 425 bilevel machine and the Breeze nasal pillows mask, wrote --
"I've added my equipment to the Profile so it shows up now."

And yes, he's a board certified sleep doctor. In the ABSM (American Board of Sleep Medicine) list of sleep medicine diplomates whose last names begin with "K" appears near the bottom of the page here:
http://www.absm.org/diplomates/byname.asp?lastname=K

Dr. Krakow posted quite a bit for awhile on this forum under the user name:
BarryKrakowMD

[briank]

anyone ever heard of a sleep doc who has apnea?

Yeah, mine. And all of her staff must undergo a sleep study. I'm not sure if they all try on a mask too, but my mask fitter, who does not have OSA, certainly has.

[jennmary]

I have GERD, and some other stomach issues. I threw up once in the middle of the night and had my mouth taped. It was not fun. It was so sudden that I had vomit coming out of my nose and all over my mask before I could get the tape off. It was a very bad night. My asthma was out of control for about a week after that.

That being said...I still tape sometimes. Plus...unless you have the same constant stomach issues as I do, as well as my great ability to projectile vomit with little or no warning, then you are probably never going to have a problem. I have been on CPAP for 2 and a half years..and that is the only time anything like that happened.

You need to do whatever you need to do to make sure you are getting the therapy you need. So if are a mouth breather you need to consider taping as one of those options.

[JoyD.]

No, I have never thrown up with tape on, but I have thought about what I'd do if I felt nauseated. I do use tape nightly (folding over the right hand side -- I'm right handed -- so I can remove it quickly). If nauseated, I just wouldn't use tape that night. So I lost some air through my mouth now and then, not as bad as aspirating.

I've been a CPAPer for almost a year, and I notice that my mouth stays shut on its own better than it did at first. (I do wear a bite guard to prevent teeth grinding, and I think it is easier to keep my mouth shut better with that in my mouth.) I still use tape to optimize my treatment. If nauseated though, I'd do the best I could without tape and resume taping when the nausea disappeared.

Joy

[birdshell]

I would just like to refer anyone concerned about mouth taping and vomiting to this post, in a thread called Moderate sleep apnea, want to wait.... I wrote it all down once before; I just thought I'd save some time by posting as a quote.

NB: Please note that even jennmary did not aspirate any vomitus, as far as what she posted told us. I should say that I now use a nasal mask without mouth leaks, possibly due to teaching myself to store the tongue properly, with the tip touching the ridge of the hard palate. This may also be due to having the correct pressure (I now have an APAP).

“The safety of taping the mouth shut has not been proven and there are potential risks of regurgitation and aspiration of food and of suffocation.” TS Johnson MD et al, Sleep Apnea – The Phantom of the Night, p. 167.

WHAT?????

This guy has an MD, is editing/contributing to a book on apnea and he doesn't even know research methodology? I mean, he (or another contributor) is saying that the safety has not been proven. This means that it has not been disproven, either. Sheesh, I cannot believe that. It is another unfounded opinion--well, unless something I don't know has happened.

I have said it before and I'll say it again: Show me the research. Show me someone who is NOT drunk, drugged, comatose, had a stroke, has serious breathing problems or is otherwise impaired--IOW, just one of us who is going to sleep--who has aspirated any vomitus and/or suffered any consequences.

Mouth taping is especially dangerous for anyone who ever gets blocked nasal passages during the night. If air can’t get in through the nose, it needs to get in through the mouth.

When I use milk of magnesia smeared on the skin around the lips, and chapstick on my lips, I will sometimes just pull the tape loose by having to cough, etc. I think this will happen similarly if I wanted to breathe through my mouth. I also turn over a piece of tape on itself at a corner or an end so that I can rip it off easily by hand.

Beside the above techniques, I use the methods that rooster outlined here: Just One Man's Very Successful Mouth Taping Procedure

Mouth taping is also risky in case of a hose disconnect or power outage.

How in the WORLD can a simple disconnected hose cause a problem? Masks have been designed so that one can breathe through vents with a disconnected hose or a power outage. I disconnect my hose and wear the mask should I need to use the toilet in the middle of the night. So far, I have been breathing adequately during this time.

And, if I do this and block the flow of air accidentally while disconnecting the hose, I am jolted a bit by the lack of airflow. I am guessing that this would awaken me should the hose be blocked. And, if something blocks the hose, say, me rolling over on it, I am awakened. What is different about that if my mouth is taped?

Further, for me, a full-faced mask is not an option. I have just had gum surgery for one "rogue" tooth that is a bit crooked. The Liberty pressing on this tooth and gum killed the tissue, and any other mask will similarly press on the gum. So, much as I loved my Liberty (except for it breaking off pieces regularly) I cannot use it or any other full faced mask. That means, either I tape (since chin straps didn't work for me) or get no treatment from the cpap because my mouth will leak.

I think that when medical professionals are unable to correctly interpret research that we all fail. This is why I like the doctors who say, "I'll do some research and get back to you." I have a number of unusual conditions, as well as typical ones. The medical field is too large and complicated for one person to know everything.

However, the Sleep Apnea – The Phantom of the Night and TS Johnson MD, et. al. are doing a disservice. I have a few doctors who could teach them how to properly draw conclusions from research. If they are too busy, I'd be happy to help them out myself. I am qualified to comment on the research and the methods.

Karen,
Who just contributed my worth.

[ozij]

Effect of mouth leak on effectiveness of nasal bilevel ventilatory assistance and sleep architecture
Eur Respir J 1999; 14: 1251-1257
H Teschler, J Stampa, R Ragette, N Konietzko, and M Berthon-Jones

(Teschler and Bethon-Jones are MD's, and central figures in ResMed's research and development of algorithms)

Mouth leak is common during nasal ventilatory assistance, but its effects on ventilatory support and on sleep architecture are unknown. The acute effect of sealing the mouth on sleep architecture and transcutaneous carbon dioxide tension (Ptc,CO2) was tested in 9 patients (7 hypercapnic) on longterm nasal bilevel ventilation with symptomatic mouth leak. Patients slept with nasal bilevel ventilation at their usual settings on two nights in random order. On one night, the mouth was taped closed. Leak was measured with a pneumotachograph.

Results, with added emphasis mine:
Median leak fell from 0.35+/-0.07 (mean +/- SEM) L x s(-1) untaped to 0.06+/-0.03 L x s(-1) taped.
Ptc,CO2 fell in 8/9, including all hypercapnic patients.
Across all patients, the mean Ptc,CO2 fell by 1.02+/-0.28 kPa (7.7+/-2.1 mm Hg) with taping (p = 0.007).
Arousal index fell in every patient.
Mean arousal index fell from 35.0+/-3.0 to 13.9+/-1.2 h(-1) (p<0.0001),
and rapid eye movement (REM) sleep increased from 12.9+/-1.5% to 21.1+/-1.8% sleep time (p = 0.0016).
Slow wave sleep changed inconsistently, from a mean of 13.1+/-1.6% to 19.5+/-2.2% of sleep (p = 0.09).
Sleep latency and efficiency were unchanged.
In four healthy volunteers ventilator-induced awake hypopharyngeal pressure swing during timed bilevel ventilation fell by 35+/-5% L(-1) x s(-1) of voluntary mouth leak (p<0.0001).

Mouth leak reduces effective nasal bilevel ventilatory support, increases transcutaneous carbon dioxide tension, and disrupts sleep architecture

http://erj.ersjournals.com/cgi/reprint/14/6/1251

On the control night, patients slept as usual. On the
treatment night, conditions were identical to the control
night excepting that the mouth was taped closed several
minutes prior to lights out, using several layers of hypoallergenic
medical grade adhesive tape. The last 5 cm of
the tape was folded over to provide a nonadhesive quickrelease
tab, and the patient shown how to use this. On both
nights, great care was taken with mask fitting and headstrap
adjustment, to minimize mask leaks.
The polygraph records were scored manually for sleep

This study clearly demonstrated that when patients are receiving noninvasive
ventilatory support via the nasal airway during
sleep, the occurrence of mouth leak reduces effective ventilation,
induces multiple arousals, and reduces the amount
of REM sleep: the prevention of mouth leaks improved
ventilation, greatly reduced arousals, and markedly increased
REM sleep.

There is an urgent clinical need for a safe and effective
method for preventing mouth leaks during bilevel ventilatory
support. Taping was used in this study in preference to
other ways of sealing the mouth such as a full face mask,
because existing full face masks have higher deadspace,
leak, and discomfort than nosemasks, and arousal data
would be uninterpretable. However, the authors do not at
this stage advocate taping the mouth for indiscriminate
long-term home use, because of the risk of asphyxia in the
presence of nasal obstruction, machine or power failure, or
regurgitation.
Since performing the present study, ~30 carefully chosen
patients, relying on nocturnal support for ventilation but
unable to be satisfactorily treated due to mouth leak, unable
to tolerate a full face mask, highly alert, with no history
of regurgitation, and faced with the alternatives of
tracheotomy or untreated respiratory insufficiency, have
elected to use tape at home for periods of up to 6 months.
The tape is well tolerated and no adverse events have been
observed. In one patient, taping the mouth caused the
Ptc,CO2 to fall acutely from 8.91 kPa to 5.32 kPa (67
mmHg to 40 mmHg), and it was necessary to reduce the
ventilator settings to compensate.

[rubymom]

Wow, talk about the power of suggestion. I read this thread on Friday or Saturday and early Sunday morning I removed my mask to go to the bathroom and when I put it back on and it turned itself on, something flew into my mouth and throat. My first thought was a bug crawled into it during the 30 seconds I was in the bathroom (very unlikely I'm sure). Nevertheless, I gagged immediately and thought I was going to throw up. I realized then that I could have vomited before I got the mask off ( don't use tape). But it would certainly be off soon enough to not be life-threatening to me. Fortunately, nothing happened though I still wonder what that was.

[rested gal]

Thanks for quoting those excerpts from an actual research study, ozij.

I suppose DMEs and RTs would point to this CYA comment:
However, the authors do not at
this stage advocate taping the mouth for indiscriminate
long-term home use, because of the risk of asphyxia in the
presence of nasal obstruction, machine or power failure, or
regurgitation.


Some of us longtime tapers, of course, would contentedly point to what the authors said here...
Since performing the present study, ~30 carefully chosen
patients, relying on nocturnal support for ventilation but
unable to be satisfactorily treated due to mouth leak, unable
to tolerate a full face mask, highly alert, with no history
of regurgitation, and faced with the alternatives of
tracheotomy or untreated respiratory insufficiency, have
elected to use tape at home for periods of up to 6 months.
The tape is well tolerated and no adverse events have been
observed.

Oh, and when people ask, "Why use tape??? Why not just use a Full Face mask????" or "Why not use a chin strap???"

I've tried chin straps. Keeping my jaw up does not prevent mouth breathing/mouth air leaks for me. It does sometimes, but not on a consistent-enough basis.

I did use a Full Face mask my first six months. Used three different brands. Have tried several more FF masks since then, including the Hybrid and Liberty. I don't sleep as restfully or anywhere near as comfortably with any FF mask as I do with other types of masks and taped mouth.

For people who like their FF mask, that's great. I'm truly glad your mask suits you.

Same for those who get good mouth sealing results by using a chin strap. When that works...great.

Tape happens to be what suits me best. Been taping for five years now.

In those five years --

I've awakened to remove the tape several times when power outages occurred. Trying to get enough air through just the exhaust vent of a non-FF mask apparently made breathing so stuffy I woke up. No panic, no feeling of suffocation...just a feeling of "this is wayyyy too stuffy."

I had a slight bout of food poisoning once and had plenty of time to remove the tape. Felt fine when I went to bed, but woke up during the night with a nauseated feeling, so I took the tape off. I had quite a few minutes of nauseated "awake" time to lay there with the tape off, thinking, "I hope I'm not going to vomit...maybe if I stay reallllllll still this will go away....maybe I'm not reallllllly going to be sick....oh gosh, I think it really may happen... I wonder if I need to get up now....mayyyybe it won't happen....uh oh, am I going to make it all the way to the bathroom??!!!"